Board of Architectural Review
Board of Architectural Review
Tue, June 16, 2026
Agenda items
Vote records
Discussion summary
Transcript
Meeting summaryAI-generated
Board of Architectural Review — June 16, 2026
This was a regular monthly meeting of the Charlottesville BAR. The board welcomed a new member, introduced a consent agenda item, and heard three certificate of appropriateness (COA) applications, including a significant multi-story housing development on West Main Street. The meeting ran until approximately 9:30 p.m.
New Member Introduction
The board welcomed Jen Trompeter, a landscape architect who has practiced in Charlottesville for many years and recently ran her own firm. She abstained from the consent agenda vote, having not been present at the March 17 meeting.
Consent Agenda: March 17, 2026 Meeting Minutes
The minutes were approved without discussion.
Vote: Approved unanimously; Trompeter abstained.
601–617 East Market Street — Entry Gate (Certificate of Appropriateness)
Staff presented a COA request for the installation of a metal security gate at the "Mickey Building," a two-story brick structure built in 1900. The gate would close off an existing vestibule at an opening that was originally a window, modified to a doorway in 2007. Architect and applicant Candice Smith explained the design: a powder-coated black mild steel gate with a glass transom panel and a small security panel (required by code to prevent the gate from being easily bypassed), swinging inward. Decorative sconces on either side — noted by the board as nearly historic themselves, installed in the early 1990s — will remain. A Knox Box for emergency access was also noted. Staff recommended approval, citing the gate's compatibility with other nearby gates and the building's contemporary eclectic character. No public comment was offered.
Vote: Approved 9–0.
1410 Grady Avenue — Window Replacements (Certificate of Appropriateness)
This application involved replacing 36 existing aluminum slider windows (with a plan to replace all 130 over three years) at a 1952 apartment building in the Rugby Road/University Circle ADC district, using bronze vinyl double-hung windows. Staff noted the windows are not original and the building is non-contributing. The applicant, representing Woodard Properties, cited ongoing problems with condensation, thermal bridging, and water intrusion, and explained the choice of vinyl over higher-cost materials as a value-driven decision to maintain attainable rents.
One board member (Schwartz) raised concern that the submitted product specifications appeared to be for owner-occupied residential use — the warranty explicitly excluded commercial properties — and said he could not approve without more assurance of commercial-grade quality. Other board members acknowledged the concern but indicated they were prepared to approve, noting the building is non-contributing and that vinyl window quality has improved substantially. The applicant confirmed the windows were an upgraded series, not the lowest builder-grade product.
Vote: Approved 7–2 (Schwartz and Rosenthal dissenting).
835, 843, 847 West Main Street — Multi-Story Apartment Building (Certificate of Appropriateness)
This was the third review of a proposed new multi-story apartment building by developer LV Collective on a currently vacant/surface-parking lot on West Main Street. The building has been reduced from an originally proposed 11 stories to 8 stories facing West Main, stepping down to 6 stories at the rear adjacent to the West Haven public housing neighborhood. The board had previously held two pre-application conferences (August 2025 and May 2026).
What was presented: Architect Mohamed Lawson of Niles Bolton presented detailed wall sections and enlarged construction details responding to prior BAR feedback, including brick corbelling, window recessing, transitions between materials, and decorative brickwork along the western "memory walk" side. Proposed materials include full-thickness brick (wrapping the north and west facades per BAR's prior suggestion), James Hardie fiber cement panel with a commercial-grade reveal system, vinyl windows (black, commercial-grade with deeper set glazing on the West Main and west facades), and aluminum storefront at grade. Physical samples were passed to board members.
Key issues discussed:
*Vinyl windows:* The board asked whether these were commercial-grade with appropriate warranties. The applicant confirmed the specified manufacturer (VPI) provides commercial-grade product and that specs would be performance-based to allow flexibility at bidding. The board accepted this.
*Fiber cement:* Several members expressed reservations about long-term durability and appropriateness for a prominent civic-facing building on Main Street, citing examples of mildewing panels on nearby buildings. The applicant noted the smooth finish and heavy-gauge reveal system would perform better than typical residential installations. The board accepted this but noted concerns for the record.
*Landscaping and site plan:* This was the central issue. The board had no detailed landscape design to review — the applicant explained that specifics have been intentionally left open pending community engagement with West Haven resident planners, particularly regarding a pedestrian/vehicular connection along the west side of the building (aspirationally called the "Memory Walk"). Staff clarified the BAR was only reviewing the building itself and the drive aisle/pedestrian promenade as currently drawn — not any future community-designed Memory Walk.
*Community engagement:* Public commenter Brandon Collins, speaking on behalf of West Haven resident planners, asked the board to defer the application, noting no substantive community dialogue had occurred since the May meeting and that residents still wish to have input on building facades, materials, and plantings. Emily Dreyfus of the Legal Aid Justice Center echoed this, noting that if approval proceeded, the board should at minimum require the landscaping to come back separately and request additional solar/shadow studies. The applicant acknowledged two attempts to attend a West Haven Planners meeting were unsuccessful and stated ongoing commitment to community dialogue.
*Solar/shade study:* The submitted study showed only noon shadows on four dates. The board requested a study covering 9:00 a.m., noon, 3:00 p.m., and 6:00 p.m. to assist with plant selection and provide information to West Haven community planners.
*Archaeology:* The board learned the applicant had already completed a Phase One archaeological investigation. Staff suggested and the board included a condition requiring the report be provided to staff prior to final site plan approval.
*Site plan vs. development plan:* Staff clarified that the applicant is transitioning from a development plan to a site plan process. An outstanding city denial letter (dated approximately June 4) regarding the development plan was noted; staff explained this is a normal iterative review process and does not affect the BAR's action.
Resolution: After extensive discussion, the board agreed to approve the building architecture and defer all site-level elements — including plantings, paving, hardscape, site furnishings, exterior building lighting, and the pedestrian/vehicular connection along the west side — to a separate future COA application. New member Jen Trompeter emphasized the importance of the western connection as a cultural and accessible landscape, encouraged meaningful budget allocation for landscape, and requested detailed sections through the west side when the applicant returns.
Conditions of approval included:
Ground-level mechanical equipment, utility meters, transformers, etc. to be screened per design guidelines and shown on the final site plan, subject to BAR staff approval
Meters and panel boxes to be located preferably within the garage; if not, on non-prominent side elevations only
Garage lighting immediately inside any opening to be dimmable, not exceed 3000K color temperature, and have a color rendering index of not less than 80 (preferably 90+)
Street-level storefront glass to be clear with a visible light transmittance (VLT) of not less than 70%
Phase One archaeological investigation report to be provided to BAR staff prior to site plan approval
Shade/shadow study to be provided showing 9:00 a.m., noon, 3:00 p.m., and 6:00 p.m. on the dates already studied, to inform plant selection and West Haven community planning
Site elements on sheets 7–12 of the submittal (plant palette, paving palette, site furnishings, lighting, pedestrian promenade, and drive aisle) are excluded from this COA and will be reviewed under a separate future COA
Vote: Approved 9–0.
*Staff noted that the applicant has 10 business days to appeal any conditions of approval, and that adjacent property owners who feel aggrieved may appeal to City Council through a formal application process.*
Bylaws Revision — Second Draft
Given the late hour (approximately 9:30 p.m.), the board agreed by consensus to defer discussion of the bylaws revision to the August meeting, with the July date tentatively reserved for an informal board gathering. Board members were asked to review the draft and submit questions or comments to staff in advance. Staff noted the goal is to keep the bylaws skeletal and framework-oriented, relying on Robert's Rules for procedural matters, before submitting to the city attorney.
Key Takeaways
835–847 West Main Street (LV Collective) was approved 9–0, but all landscaping, hardscape, site furnishings, exterior lighting, and the pedestrian/vehicular west-side connection were explicitly excluded and must come back as a separate COA — giving West Haven residents time to engage meaningfully in that design.
The Memory Walk has no approved design yet. The BAR reviewed only the building architecture and a basic drive aisle/sidewalk. Any future community-designed Memory Walk will go through staff review and potentially return to the full BAR.
Concerns about material quality were voiced but did not block approval. Multiple board members expressed reservations about vinyl windows and fiber cement on a prominent Main Street building; these concerns are on the record but did not carry the vote.
The 1410 Grady Avenue vinyl window application passed 7–2, with dissenting members citing insufficient evidence that the specified product carried commercial-grade warranties — a signal that future vinyl window applications on multi-family buildings should come with commercial-grade documentation.
A new board member with landscape architecture expertise (Jen Trompeter) joined the board, and her presence is likely to raise the bar for landscape review going forward, particularly on the West Main Street project when it returns.
AI-generated summary from voice-to-text transcript. Not the official record. Verify important details with the source documents linked above.
What happened at this meeting
Bylaws revision update: second draft for review & comments.
# Summary: Bylaws Revision Update – Second Draft for Review & Comments
Staff presented a window replacement application for a 1952 apartment building at 1410 Grady Avenue, recommending approval of vinyl double-hung windows in dark bronze despite guidelines discouraging vinyl material, citing improved quality standards. The board discussed the bylaws revision and agreed with staff's recommendation to adopt a skeletal framework approach that relies on Robert's Rules for procedural matters rather than extensive detailed language. Board members committed to reviewing suggested edits and submitting questions before the next meeting, and the group postponed finalizing the bylaws until August to allow time for internal feedback and consultation with the city attorney. The overarching decision was to keep the bylaws document simple and reference existing procedural rules to avoid over-specification.
Staff presented a window replacement application for a 1952 apartment building at 1410 Grady Avenue, recommending approval of vinyl double-hung windows in dark bronze despite guidelines discouraging vinyl material, citing improved quality standards. The board discussed the bylaws revision and agreed with staff's recommendation to adopt a skeletal framework approach that relies on Robert's Rules for procedural matters rather than extensive detailed language. Board members committed to reviewing suggested edits and submitting questions before the next meeting, and the group postponed finalizing the bylaws until August to allow time for internal feedback and consultation with the city attorney. The overarching decision was to keep the bylaws document simple and reference existing procedural rules to avoid over-specification.
Agenda items (2)
Procedural (2)
1ProceduralMeeting Minutes: March 17, 2026 [Link to meeting video]
Council will review and approve the official written record of what was discussed and decided at the March 17, 2026 meeting.
2ProceduralBylaws revision update: second draft for review & comments.
Council members will review an updated second draft of the city's bylaws and provide feedback before a final version is prepared.
What happened
# Summary: Bylaws Revision Update – Second Draft for Review & CommentsStaff presented a window replacement application for a 1952 apartment building at 1410 Grady Avenue, recommending approval of vinyl double-hung windows in dark bronze despite guidelines discouraging vinyl material, citing improved quality standards. The board discussed the bylaws revision and agreed with staff's recommendation to adopt a skeletal framework approach that relies on Robert's Rules for procedural matters rather than extensive detailed language. Board members committed to reviewing suggested edits and submitting questions before the next meeting, and the group postponed finalizing the bylaws until August to allow time for internal feedback and consultation with the city attorney. The overarching decision was to keep the bylaws document simple and reference existing procedural rules to avoid over-specification.
Additional votes recorded in minutes
Approve meeting minutes (March/St. Patrick's Day meeting)
abstain 1 · aye 1
Jen Trompeterabstain
voice voteaye
Approve COA for 609 East Market Street (entry gate)
aye 8
Baileyaye
Burroaye
Kinnamanaye
Lewisaye
Rosenthalaye
Schwartzaye
Tavenneraye
Trompeteraye
Approve COA for 1410 Grady Avenue (window replacements)
aye 6 · nay 2
Baileyaye
Burrellaye
Lewisaye
Rosenthalnay
Schwartznay
Tabanyaye
Timmermanaye
Trumpeteraye
Approve COA for 835, 843, 847 West Main Street (multi-story apartment building) with conditions
aye 8
Baileyaye
Burleaye
Lewisaye
Rosenthalaye
Schwartzaye
Tavennyaye
Timmermanaye
Trumpeteraye
Adjourn
aye 1
voice voteaye
Verbatim transcript available
735 transcript segments indexed
No, we didn't. We could go back to city space, but that isn't free cases isn't set up. So this is really helping out Brandon and them. My fear, my concern is that- No, I just said, "Oh, and water and chips." City watcher steps in and says, "Hey, no eating." Just both on money and time.
Yeah. To convey the- There he is. Okay. We have a full house. Yeah. I know there wasn't even a forum chat for this meeting. Oh, yes, there was. There was? Hell yeah. Maybe I didn't get that. Maybe. You want some chips?
I think we just go with our normal preamble. All right, y'all ready? You might need to amend the alternate preamble given our- I think I'm just going to go with our normal one. All right. Good evening.
Welcome to this regular monthly meeting of the Charlottesville Board of Architectural Review. Staff will introduce each item, followed by the applicant's presentation, which should not exceed 10 minutes.
The chair will then ask for questions from the public, followed by questions from the BAR. After questions are closed, the chair will ask for comments from the public. For each application, members of the public are allowed three minutes to ask questions and three minutes to offer comments.
Speakers shall identify themselves, and comments should be limited to the BAR's purview, that is, regarding only the exterior aspects of a project. Following the BAR's discussion and prior to taking action, the applicant will have up to three minutes to respond All right.
I want to introduce our new member, Jen Trompeter. She is a landscape architect. Hello. Hi, Jen. Hello. Welcome to our merry band. Thank you. Happy to be here. Would you like to say anything? You're welcome to.
Sure. I'm Jen Trompeter. I am a landscape architect. Ooh, there. Can you hear me now? I'm a landscape architect. I'm a UVA grad. I've been practicing, I've been living in Charlottesville for longer than I want to say.
No, I've been practicing in Charlottesville. I've practiced at a number of firms here in town. I went out on my own about 10 years ago, maybe longer. Have had my own practice for a few years. No, less than that.
I am excited to be here. I will be honest, I haven't done a lot of work in Charlottesville, so I'm counting on you all to help educate me, and I am excited to take part. Awesome. Well, thank you very much for joining us, and we're looking forward to working with you and your landscape architecture expertise.
So, our first agenda item is matters from the public, not on the agenda or on the consent agenda. Before you move forward, I don't know the level of folks who will show up and/or be online who wish to speak.
If you wanted to, because it has been an unusual amount, but if you wanted to alter the questions- Mm-hmm ... and comments, now is your opportunity to do that. And I think Kate came- She did. Yeah. So, as I said it's entirely your call, but otherwise you will then be- Subject to the three questions ...
with the two times three minutes. Yeah. What's the VAR feel? We don't have that many people in the room, at least right now. How many people do we have online? Anybody? There are three guests online. Okay.
Chairman. I think that they would be here already- I agree ... if there was going to be a crowd. I agree. Yeah. I think we just thank you, Jeff, for the reminder. I appreciate that, but I think we'll just stick to our normal routine.
Okay. Anybody, any matters from the public online? No hands raised. Okay. Anyone here? Okay. Next item's the consent agenda. The only thing on the consent agenda are the meeting minutes from St. Patrick's Day.
Does anyone have any comments on the meeting minutes? Move to approve as submitted. Second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. All right. Jen wasn't here, so she'll abstain. I'll abstain. Great. Thank you. There are no deferred items, so we'll go straight to new items.
Our first item, or application is a Certificate of Appropriateness application for 601 to 617 East Market Street, installation of an entry gate. And we'll have staff report, and then the applicant can give us a little presentation.
Okay. Yeah, this is a COA request, the installation of a gate at an existing masonry opening in the Mickey Building. This building was constructed in 1900. It's a two-story brick building, and it was built for the Mickey Company, which at the time, and for some time, was one of the largest printers of legal books and case studies in the South.
And the BAR's looked at this a couple times, at least in recent memory, but going back through our old files and noticed that quite a lot of changes to this building. Yeah, as you see here that... Can I-- Am I shooting somebody in the eye?
Well, only a green pointer works on the screens. Sorry. Oh, it won't show up on screen. Okay. But as you can see that the photos on the left are from 1925. Looks like the same day, just the blinds are up, then the blinds are down.
And, in the late '80s, there were some alterations approved. Not everything was realized, but primarily you saw a lot of changes to the window and door openings, and not just on this south elevation, but wrapping around the corner.
And one of the interesting pictures, and I don't think I included it, was that where the pavilion is now and that landscape space, used to be a parking lot. So, you always forget what something was- I was pulled over once in that parking lot for going the wrong way- ...
on Market Street. Okay. Yeah. And, so what we're looking at is in the elevation on the bottom right. This is an opening that had originally been a window, and in 2007 was modified as a doorway. The door opening itself was not installed.
So, the remnants that I see on the wall, I think, they're probably evidence just from the window that was there. And then s- They have, when you go into this opening, there's a door into a business. There's two double doors on either side, but those are fixed.
The entry is there. You see that wood door. So the intent is to create a secure opening to close off that vestibule. And the drawing, it's sort of difficult to show something transparent. But because this is access to an office space, the code official is requiring...
You can see some of the egress panel. I think the best image for this, when I looked at the photos of some nearby gates, I understood. It made a lot more sense to me, and I know they're in the staff report.
Not those, it was the- Oh, yeah. I didn't include those. Sorry ... Oh, didn't. But I think they are in the application. They are, yes. Yeah. And so the question, I think that, in the context of those images, this drawing makes a lot more sense to me, and staff is recommending approval.
I did also ask the applicant the possibility of doing a, I know because we had discussed it at the Corp's office building, maybe something like a full piece of glass. But those are just ideas. What you see on the left has been done elsewhere.
We've approved gates nearby. So again, our recommendation's approval. I know Candice is here to represent the applicant, or she is the applicant and the designer. Do you have any questions for me? Candice, would you like to come up and- Yeah.
Yes. Okay. Interesting. Okay. Good evening. I'm Candice Smith. I'm an architect. My office is at 202 6th Street Northeast, just around the bend from this building. The proposed metal gate installation, it really aims to minimize the alterations to the existing structure.
The arch transom that completes that security closure is a glass transom and avoids altering the existing opening's shape. And other gates in the surrounding area were referenced to ensure the proposal fit within the context of the building and East Market Street more broadly.
Okay. Thank you. Do we have any questions from the public? Anybody online? No. Okay. Any questions from the board? I have one. I think I know the answer, but I'll ask it anyway. Will the Babar sconces on each side of this proposed gate remain?
They will. Thank you. Yes. In fact, the only other external addition, this little thing on the left, that's a Knox Abox for emergency personnel access. But it sort of balances the fire hydrant- Yeah ...
framed thing on the right anyway, that is existing. That's why I included in my staff report the sentence, "The design identifies the gate as non-historic while contributing to the contemporary eclectic elements that have been added over the years to this historic building." So, good catch.
I think the Babar lights are almost historic at this point, aren't they? Yeah. I think they've been there at least 30 years. Yeah, since the early '90s. Yeah. Is the primary purpose of this gate security?
Yes. And it'll just be closed at night. It'll be open during the day, lay back against the opening and allow normal access to the business. Just relax, swing in. Do you need the dark panel there? I noticed some other examples at the Monticello Hotel and so forth, where the gates are more open.
It seemed- Yeah, I think I'll show you those two examples that are in the... Can you get to those? I saw those. And the reason for those is- Did you want me to pull up the- Do you mind? There's one at the back.
Sorry, I can't reach it. Yeah, but those two big black panel things. One is at the Mickey Building and one is on Main Street. There's a note that the interior handle is just a lever. But the gate is secured with a key on the outside for getting in, a key pad, and on the inside, it has to be able to be just pull the lever and escape.
Right. And so if we don't put a security panel of some kind, you can reach over and just lift it open and open the gate. Right. That's it. So other more exotic shapes were added to other places, but we thought that square panel with an applied molding of a steel bar sort of went along with the rest of the- Mm-hmm ...
rectangular images from those other windows and openings. Right. And I'll also say, I suspect that at least at the tavern, the Monticello Hotel, had it gotten code, because that was the first question when Candice asked me.
I went and talked to the code official, so I assumed you probably should have something on that, so that's the difference. Yeah. We talked to them and confirmed a gate could swing in, even though the egress door swings out.
Right. So. Interesting. I'm just curious about the glass panel. I'm assuming it's glass. It's not some kind of synthetic or reflective- Just clear glass, tempered, and maybe the address on it so people can identify.
There's actually two businesses that go in and out that door currently, so. And you need that for security as an added function. Yeah, it would take a big effort to climb over, but it's possible, so And I guess the door, and then that panel and the frame, it's all one piece?
The transom and the frame are anchored to the building, and the gate then is set on hinges- Yeah ... and opens. Did you say it would swing inward- Yes ... when it's open? Yes. And it would block one of the doors?
Those are fixed doors. Got it. They have desks and things up against them. They don't have handles. They don't open. Got it. So it's really just one door directly ahead. Does the gate also swing out or just in?
The gate just swings in. For fire reasons. Well, she said they already talked to them, so. Yeah. Chuck said it was fine. If you have a limited number of people, you can swing in. Yeah. Right. Okay. And they also have back exits- Try to walk in, right ...
through their businesses up and out of the building. Yeah. There's something about applied decorative sticking. Can you- That's just on the black metal panel. So it's just using a picket to make a square, as though it was a raised panel.
So it's just an applied half-inch square that will be black like the others. It'll be more a textural thing than a visible sign. And then I wondered about the powder-coated black, mild steel, if that was consistent with the- Maybe ...
with the other steel elements that you have. It looks like the light fixtures are Corten or weathering steel. They actually are weather copper. Yeah. They were installed in the early '90s. Okay. So I was just curious if the powder coating would be consistent with...
Even that one picture, there's a metal, the sign is hanging from what looks like a dark black- That's actually black ... metal. That is black, yeah. But actually, there's two signs on arms- Mm-hmm ...
for the two businesses. Mm-hmm. An architect's office and the Hard Pine Company. Yeah. I just think just ensuring that you're not adding another- Right ... type of- It's the same color and metal as those two existing- Okay ...
armed signs. Okay. Any other questions? Any comments from the public? No, none. None. Any comments from the board? I'd like to make a motion. Please go ahead. Okay. Having considered the standards set forth within city code, including the ADC District design guidelines, I move to find the proposed entry gate at 609 East Market Street satisfies the BAR's criteria, and is compatible with this property and the other properties in this ADC district, and that the BAR approves the application as submitted.
Second. All righty. Mr. Schwartz? Yes. Mr. Bailey? Yes. Mr. Burro? Yes. Ms. Lewis? Aye. Mr. Kinnaman? Yes. Ms. Tavenner? Yes. Mr. Rosenthal? Yes. Ms. Trompeter? Yes. I vote yes. Thank you very much. Good luck with your gate.
Thanks. See you. It's nice to go nine and zero. Nine and zero. Not too bad. It's been a while. Yeah. It's been a while. Thank you, Carl. All righty. Next item is 1410 Grady Avenue, certificate of appropriateness, application for window replacements.
And this is one of our favorite types of projects, a non-contributing building- ... non-historic windows, not original. Not original. And so hopefully, the approach I've taken is reasonable. So this is an apartment building on Grady Avenue, constructed in 1952.
I have a special place in this building. That apartment on the second floor on the right-hand side. In grad school, my daughter got very upset because my friend there didn't give her Jell-O in a fancy jar.
Just gave it to her in a bowl. So my three-year-old took umbrage with that. So yeah, this- ... strong feelings about this building. But yeah. So anyway, in 1952, this is in the Rugby Road/University Circle venerable ADC district.
As I said, the windows are not original. They are replacement windows. I'm not sure what the exterior even was on this. And you saw in the front there, the two large trees that used to be there. They were removed.
They were structurally damaging the building, but some oaks have been planted to replace them. Just saw that the other day, just wanted to note that. So the challenge on this one is that the applicant is requesting the use of a vinyl window, which our guidelines discourage.
They don't preclude, but they discourage. And I was curious more about the alignment of the sash, and if it would... So really, just playing around to give me a rough idea. And then looking at some buildings nearby, where there are the double-hung windows that are wider than they are high.
So, this was more a satisfying of curiosity for myself. So I think the double-hung do work. The color is fine. I am not an expert on vinyl windows, but I know things have improved with time. But I think given the intent here, and given the Aesthetic result, I'm comfortable recommending approval.
But it does raise a question that I think we need to talk about it moving forward. And certainly later tonight, we'll be looking at another project that has vinyl windows. What are some of the decision points that we'd want to look at?
Where does a vinyl window cross the line to being a preferred product? And the idea is, Carl and I had some back and forth about this, is you could go with a window that meets all our criteria, but it could be a poorly constructed builder-grade window.
So, it's possible vinyl windows in some circumstances might be preferable. But, again, in this circumstance, I've recommended approval. I think Cassie is here if y'all have any questions for them. But do you have any questions for me?
Is there somewhere in the staff report it mentioned the color? It's like a bronze on the exterior. Okay. Similar to what's there now, like a dark bronze. Okay. And what's the light division of their- They're sliders right now.
It's just side by side. Right now. But they're replacing it with a double hung. Double hung. Right. Are they going to have divided lights or is it- No, just single ... one over one? And is this to replace all the windows in the building?
Or was it just... I noted some apartments were noted. So is it- There was a question about that. But it is to replace all of the windows. And a lot. I went by the other day, and I didn't take a picture because I was driving, and I thought there were some double hung windows.
It's possible on the- But I'm not seeing them in any of the existing- ... the smaller. I think on some of these smaller, what I believe were- On second story? ... bathroom windows. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I'd ask the question...
Well, never mind. Jeff- Save it for comments ... what has been the objection in general to the vinyl and why you suggest an alternative? It's been in the guidelines for some time, and the guidelines, particularly on that, haven't changed.
If this were work on a historic building, it'd be a different response to it. But I think the objection previously had just been the quality of the material. Vinyl windows at that time were a sort of a builder-grade product, and just not appropriate for within a historic district.
But I think products have gotten better, and again, this is a non-historic building, non-historic windows. And you all have okayed vinyl windows in some circumstances recently, so. Let's- Yep. Does the applicant- She's online.
Okay. Sorry. If the applicant would like to speak to this project, please feel free. Hi. Hello. I am Cassiah. I will be representing Woodard Properties for this project. So for this initial phase, we will be doing 36 of the windows, the 36 existing aluminum windows throughout the building.
Throughout the next three years, until 2029, we do expect a full window replacement of all 130 of the windows. A few of those are double hung already. They are aluminum. They are the ones that's in the bathroom.
All the other existing windows are the sliders. The proposed replacement of the units consist of the bronze vinyl double hung windows that are consistent with the surrounding neighborhood's architectural context, and also ensuring minimal visual impact with a cohesive, refined exterior appearance.
We also want to use vinyl rather than higher-cost materials. It's a deliberate, value-driven decision that not only reduces upfront and long-term maintenance expenses, but also allows us to help attainable rent levels for residents while reinvesting those savings into meaningful, sustainable upgrades within the building's interior, ultimately enhancing both affordability and overall quality of living.
Awesome. Thank you. Anybody have any questions? I guess we'll go questions from the public first. No raised hands. All right. Thanks. Nobody in the room. Any questions from the VAR for the applicant? I have one.
Is the interest in replacing them have to do with any problems operating the windows at this point? No to the operation. More so we've been having a lot of concerns with tenants with ongoing condensation buildup, thermal bridging, and water intrusion.
Worse. Okay. Yeah. And I know, I guess folks have said the aluminum windows aren't the original windows. Do you or anyone have any idea when the aluminum windows were installed? I'm just curious. We're guessing a little after 1952.
We don't have an exact date, though. Oh, okay. Hm. That would suggest they might be original. The building is 1952. Right. But it was just a curiosity. Any comments from the public, online or here? No.
Comments from the board? You know I've got comments. Go ahead. So, I guess my concern is, I feel like when we approve a vinyl window, we need to have some sort of proof that it's a quality vinyl window.
Looking at the marketing materials for this, there wasn't anything in there that told me that it's commercial quality, that's going to last for multifamily apartments. I found the warranty online, and the warranty explicitly excludes commercial properties or anything that's not owner-occupied.
So, that right there makes me want you to pick a different vinyl window and then prove to us why we should accept that vinyl window. I'm okay with vinyl, as long as I have some sort of reassurance that it's quality, that it's going to last, and that it's not going to fall apart.
So yeah, I guess that's where I don't feel like we have enough information right now. I don't have enough information to approve this. And I feel like I know the building is not contributing, but if it was new construction, I think I would say the exact same thing.
So, just because it's kind of a non-contributing, and frankly, kind of ugly building, I don't think it means that we can just let them do whatever they want to it. The cut sheet- I hate to be harsh, but that's worth calling out ...
Yeah, the cut sheets did look like they were for a single family residential- Mm-hmm ... owner occupied. That picture on the front. There's a lot of marketing in there about the energy savings, which is great, and I totally 100% want you guys to get energy efficient windows.
But, there's two pages on the glass and one page on the window itself, which is, I'd like to see some reassurance that it actually is a quality product. Okay. But if you guys want to vote yes, that's just where I'm standing right now.
Right. Sure. Any other thoughts? I had a different thing that I just wanted to mention, which I had raised in an email. We're changing the profile of the aperture from side by side to double hung, and in my opinion, the side by side windows, sliders, which look like casement, I was mistaken about them.
They're not a character defining feature of the building, but I just want to note that if I felt like those windows were, that I wouldn't want to replace them with a different profile. But I don't think that the change impacts the building at all.
I also would note that 1952, we have properties in the city that have been designated on our IPP list that are much newer than 1952. So, saying that this building is not historical, we may not find it interesting or 100 years old, but it certainly is an old building.
So anyway, that was a footnote at the end, but I just wanted to note that we haven't talked about the profile of the windows changing, and I think if it were a different type of window, a more unique window, and character defining and defined the facades of this, we would be discussing that now.
But I support it, except for the concerns raised by Mr. Schwartz. I do feel like the fact that it's a non-contributing building kind of lets me back off a bit. But at the same time, since typically we don't allow vinyl windows per our guidelines, there kind of needs to be a good reason to do so.
And that's sort of in step with Carl's thoughts of something quality, just really to ensure just the integrity of the neighborhood that, by the time you're halfway through replacing them, they don't start falling apart before you even finish the job, right?
But in the same breath, I was ready to approve this, so I don't know if... I guess, let me ask the applicant, what are your thoughts about doing some research on possibly a product that's still affordable, but maybe is a little higher level quality that, for example, has a warranty that applies to commercial buildings?
That might be something y'all would be interested in regardless. Yeah. We can definitely do some more research. I will say for the ones that we did price out, it's not the Series 100, which is the lowest grade.
Mm-hmm. We did upgrade to a more premium style series. So, the Series 200 is a little bit better. Yeah. Well, I think to Carl's point, if the warranty doesn't cover commercial properties, if something happens and it gets damaged, then there's no warranty.
Just for your own awareness. Okay. So, there's a couple different ways we could do this. We can go ahead and make a motion and take a vote, or the applicant can request a deferral, or we can defer it.
Any thoughts? Are there people who would want to approve it tonight? I would. I think I would. I probably would. Yeah. I think I would, too. Then you guys probably want to take a vote. Yeah. Let's just draw poll.
Do I hear a motion from someone? I have one. Okay. Having considered the standards set forth within the city code, including the ADC district design guidelines, I move to find the proposed window replacements at 1410 Grady Avenue satisfy the BAR's criteria and are compatible with this property and other properties in the ADC district, and that the BAR approves the COA as submitted.
Second. All right We'll take a vote. Mr. Schwartz? No. Mr. Bailey? Yes. Mr. Burrell? Aye. Ms. Lewis? Aye. Mr. Timmerman? Yes. Ms. Tabany? Yes. Mr. Rosenthal? No. Ms. Trumpeter? Yes. I'm going to vote yes.
So seven to two? Okay. All right. Good luck with your windows. Thank you. And hope it all works out. Thank you. Have a good evening. You, too. Thank you. All righty. Our next certificate of appropriateness application is for 835, 843, 847 West Main Street.
We've looked at this most recently last month, and then back in, was it August? So this is a multi-story housing development on West Main. I wish we had an interesting name to use for it, but 835, 843, 847, we'll just have to get okay with that rolling off the tongue.
I thought about LV Collective, but that's the developer, and they may be doing things elsewhere. Got you. But this is, yeah, a project COA request for a new multi-story apartment building on what is currently a vacant lot, and has for some time been...
It's a three-parcel lot, but for many decades has been used as surface parking. And there's a small single-story building on the site. This had been a, and I don't know the date of the residence or when it was an old house and property, probably in the 19th century.
But you all have reviewed this twice before. Last August, you had a pre-app conference on this, and then in May, so last month, we continued that pre-app conference with a preliminary discussion about some additional details.
And at that time, the applicant had reduced the height of the building. It had originally been 11 stories on four sides, and shifted to the west. This version, and nothing has changed in the elevations from what you saw.
But it is now eight stories on the front facing West Main, and it steps down to six stories at the rear, which is adjacent to the West Haven neighborhood. There's an awful lot in the staff report. I won't go through all of it.
I think just hit on some of the highlights of it. I think from a relative to design guidelines as a function of height, massing scale, the spatial elements, this building certainly meets the criteria.
Material-wise, I know there's questions about the cement board, but it does employ materials which you all have approved before. The windows are proposed as vinyl, and there's not a specific specification on it.
That I'd offer to the applicant that something that tonight they would have to address satisfactorily if we didn't have information ahead of time. They did provide a lot of discussion. The last meeting was about building sections and some of the details of the brick and the transitions and the recessing of the windows, et cetera, and they provided information which responds to that.
You all requested a sun shade analysis, which they provided an analysis. I'm not qualified to say whether this is sufficient for what you all need, but one has been provided. And the last comment I had here about the design overall was, one of the questions that you had raised, and this is why it's good to have this view here is, as has been for some time, a focus of this project is that transition to the West Haven neighborhood, where now the rear of the new building, it's set back further from a property, I think, 30 to 40 feet.
So there's space there. It's the question of what's going on in that space, and one of the questions that was raised in May was that a preference for larger trees, a visual buffer that's appropriate for that spot.
And in fact, Jen and I were talking before the meeting, and I said that what's the right thing there? Is it trees? Is it a hedge? Is it plantings? And it's in your purview to take a good hard look at that.
So to me, that's one of the last or one of the big question marks, and I know that that was a particular concern of the folks in West Haven as well. I laid out, jump back to this other thing, but I laid out in my recommendation, I know I have recommended approval with conditions that are noted.
Ms. Trumpeter mentioned something to me earlier tonight that she can raise that I think is worth considering. But if you're going to... I feel like there's information here that allow you to make a decision, whether that's to approve or to deny, it's there.
But if there's something additional, and if it isn't presented in the discussion or is something additional that you want to see or hear, I would ask that sort of approach that with a mind of this is information that would allow approval of the project.
If this is a project that's going nowhere as far as the COA is concerned, I think it's fair to express that. I wouldn't want to go to a fourth meeting and then say nah. And that was some of the comments that happened with the mark.
We looked at it an awful lot, but then it took us a while to reach a conclusion. So that's my recommendation is that if you're going to defer this or suggest they defer it, then that is with the eye towards providing information that will help with a decision.
But if you're not happy with where this is, let's make that statement tonight. Now, you all do have the ability as the BAR to defer this to next month. That's your call. You can do this. That would just mean that they'd have to turn around any reapplication very quickly.
But the BAR, if you vote to defer something, it's deferring it to the next meeting, so deferring to the July meeting. If the applicant requests a deferral, then at least by our procedures manual, they can defer it for up to 18 months.
After that, it would have to become a new application. I've touched on the memorial walk in here, and I don't want to get into a discussion about it if not necessary, but are there any questions about how I've characterized that in the staff report?
Just to clarify on that, essentially we're ruling on the project that walkway connector as designed. That's right. And then if, I believe what I read was if that were to get community involvement and a design flushed out, staff would look at it and make a determination of whether it needs to come to us in the future.
And the caveat there is kind of like, when you get a community-led design, just be really careful about they've come up with something. Do you then put it in front of the BAR for a yes or no? And I can't calibrate that at this point, but that's at least to plant that seed there that- I think the way you laid it out was pretty clear.
Right. I think it's a good process in terms of it would go through staff review first, which is pretty much everything comes through you guys first anyways. Right. And then you could also reach out to the chair and vice chair, bounce the ideas off us, and we can help determine whether it needs to come to the full BAR.
But I think the marching orders for tonight are- What's in front of us, right ... we're looking at what's in front of us. And a good conversation yesterday with one of the individuals associated with the community, and it's a rather dry paragraph in here, and I was worried that I don't want to communicate that this matter doesn't matter.
But I'm trying to find, as dry as it is, it's simply saying as a means to an end here, we don't have a design. We can't approve something to be determined later. So I needed something- Mm-hmm ... that you all could either say this is okay or this is not okay.
I very much hope that if this project is approved and moves forward, that what's been shared with the neighborhood will be realized. But I don't know how you all within your purview can compel that or require that.
And I think at the very least, what we can do is acknowledgement in the discussions that this has been raised, that this has been promised. But you all can't go so far as to say, "I'm approving this only if this happens in the future." You don't have the purview to do that.
Correct. And that's what we talked about at the end of the last meeting- Yeah ... or at the end of this, the pre-application conference for this project at last month's meeting. So I think we're sticking to that.
So, as I said, there's a lot in here. I know the app is online or- I have another question. I got a question for staff. Yes. I guess it's in the staff report. There's a letter in here from City of Charlottesville, Indiesta Timmons Group, from just, I don't know, 12 days ago, that's talking about the plan being denied, and some clarity on that would be helpful.
Give it the best And I say that as the non-planner- If you want me to ... yeah, we are planners, but in that we don't review site plan and development plans every day. Um- Maybe an easier way to ask the question is, does this bear on us or not?
So development plans are either approved or denied. Right. So if there are any comments that need to be addressed, whether it's zoning related, in previous development plans there were engineering comments.
If there are any revisions required, comments that need to be addressed, then the plan is simply denied. Denied. Got it. Okay. For example- So basically you check boxes until you check them all And resubmission is on a timeline basis- Got it ...
that they resubmit. And approval of a development plan requires a COA. Now that's something that Kate and I are still wrapping our heads around how exactly to make that happen. This is a little cart and horse because some of the requirements or some of the reasons for denial really impact us, like green space, tree requirements, tree canopy.
Amen. And this is a... Yes, it's a bit of accordion, not cart before the horse. Pick a metaphor. Because I would even go so far as to say- Page 91 ... then simply state on the development plan, "I must get a COA for this." So the circumstances with it are, and what we're saying is that with a site plan, ultimately you need a site plan to build, you look below grade.
So like on our... Let's say there's a giant lake 50 feet underneath this property. "Oh my gosh, we can't build there. There's a giant lake there." Without looking below grade, the development plan doesn't identify that.
It's more of a two-dimensional view looking down. So the risk to the developer and the applicant is that if you all approve a design and then that becomes part of that approved development plan, they move forward with the site plan and find that giant lake, uh, and can't build what was approved, they have to come back.
So it's at their risk, that they are assuming that what's shown on that development plan and approved by the COA can be transferred successfully to an approvable site plan. And if not, then we see them again with a revised design.
Does that make sense? Not trying to sound catty about it, but yeah, it's kind of as simple as it comes down to. So this is on the applicant. Okay. I wanted to just ask a question on the Memory Walk, if we could go back to the contextual plan that was up, just for clarification for us and for the members of the public.
On this contextual plan, there is no area designated as Memory Walk, but I believe it's item one, which is the pedestrian walk and the vehicular alley, I think that's how it's described, vehicular drive aisle, and pedestrian promenade.
That's what is collectively called the Memory Walk that we're- Well, the intent, and I also shared an email with you all today from Emily Dreyfus who raised some questions, and if you want to address those, you can discuss them.
But the Memory Walk exists as an aspirational- Right ... idea. I'm just asking what it is and what we're asked not to look at it except as it's presented. What are we- We're looking at the vehicular drive aisle- Is that all it is?
... pedestrian promenade. Yeah, it's a driveway- That's all it is? All it is- Okay ... there's a sidewalk on the side. Because it's not labeled as Memory Walk- Correct ... on the contextual plan. So for members of the public trying to make a connection about what the Memory Walk means, I'm pointing out that it's number one on that plan.
And that- Thank you very much. Yeah, and that was the space that was identified as available for that. It's possible when whatever occurs, it surrounds the building. So we're also not limiting what the community may come up with.
Right. And yes, it's a sidewalk on the side, a driveway in and out of the parking garage, and then where the number one is there, that's a continuation of a semi-permeable paved surface, which allows vehicular traffic to the cell tower site number five on the east side.
So that's what it will, as currently designed and as you're looking at, that's what it will accomplish. Cars in and out of the garage, a path for occasional trucks to the tower site, and a sidewalk along the west boundary.
Any other questions for staff? Is the... The tower is going to stay? Tower's on a separate parcel. Yeah. I imagine that the owner of that is quite happy with how it's being used. Okay. I just want to take a moment to compliment staff on the excellent staff report.
Thank you, guys. Thank you. Let's go to our applicant. Would you guys like to come and present, please? Paper. Oh. Okay. Sorry. Hopefully everybody can hear me a little better tonight. I actually have a voice, so I'm back.
Glad you're feeling better. I'll just really kick us off here, but most of the presentation will be from Mohamed, since we're going to really focus on the details and the architecture. But I just wanted to take a second to again, say thank you for the feedback and to acknowledge that we spent a lot of time trying to make sure that we responded to each and every single one, and I know some of those will be done here in the meeting with physical samples.
Figured that was a little easier than the email back and forth. We've made some pretty big changes. One of them being wrapping the brick around the north and the west facade. I thought it was a great suggestion and appropriate one, so we went ahead and did that.
But majority of what we've done is a commitment to the details that the rendering suggest, so that really we show that we are committed to actually providing the details, but also to make Jeff's job a little easier during the site plan process, so that everybody's really clear on what it is that we are proposing.
Before I kick it over to Mohamed, I know Jeff mentioned the possibility of a deferral. I do want to go on record and say that it is our desire to hopefully get to a vote today, no matter what that vote is.
We are very hopeful for a vote. And then maybe just touching on the Memory Walk, I want to publicly state that it is still LV's Collective's intent to follow the process that's being discussed here today and what was discussed at last meeting in terms of having a productive community dialogue and following their lead in terms of how that Memory Walk is designed.
So... Thank you. Okay. Good evening. Thank you- Evening ... for having us. I'm Mohamed Lawson, architect with Niles Bolton. I'm going to pick up from where we left last time. We got some great feedback.
I think the direction that we had presented in our meeting in May was received well in general in terms of the adjustments that we've made since our meeting from August of '25. We've shown the renderings, we've shown the depth, we've shown the massing.
We did get questions or were asked for a little bit more information related to how is that depth really going to translate into the two-dimensional elevations and the plans and all of that. And so what we've done, working with staff, is we went back to the elevations and looked at all these renderings that we've done with the corbelling and the brick and the depth that was presented, and identified five key wall sections around the perimeter that have these changing conditions from the corbelling to overhang of building, entry of the garage, main lobby, and we've identified those here where you see the red dots.
These are the wall sections. We've got three of them along West Main, given there was a lot of transitions that took place along that frontage. We've got one through the parking entry there on the west facade.
And then we've got another one along the east facade where we have the parking at the ground, and then the change of planes that are occurring further up with the residential levels. And these... Go to the next slide.
Here we go. And so these are the five sections that we've identified, and you can see we've enlarged a couple of them, that I'll run through in the following slides. So that really starts to show the renderings, showed the design intent, what we were considering from massing and transition and layering of materials.
And here we've taken a step further with these wall sections to really understand constructability, one, but also where do we start to identify these dimensional changes and the depth that has been presented.
And so the next few slides are zoom-ins on just enlarged details in a couple of areas from those wall sections. On the screen now you're seeing the brick corbelling that's happening along West Main, and as it wraps the corner on the west facade fronting the Standard building.
This is the condition at the amenities along West Main, and also at the front door of the lobby. These here are a couple other conditions where we've got overhangs on the elevated levels, so a couple of soffit conditions.
The bottom right is the soffit condition above that parking level that's fronting the east side, and then a couple of parapet conditions further up in the building. So these are all coming from the wall sections and enlarged in dimension to give us a little more clarity on exactly what's being proposed.
And here's a couple of other parapet conditions that we're illustrating here. Plan transitions, these are enlarged floor plan details, showing how we transition from your outside corner transition where we have fiber cement panel, brick transitions at the corner, transitions from brick to fiber cement.
So just giving us a little bit more information on that depth This is the west facade, the ground level, where we talked about a lot of the service rooms. There were some concerns about how we are going to address this area.
It is where we have the celebrated or the memory walk, and the connection, yet we had a lot of utilities located in this area. Part of it is just the challenging access that we have on this development.
There's really very few areas we can get these vehicles and get access to the utilities and services that are necessary. But we've really pushed the design a little bit further here and we're illustrating between brick texturing, a little bit of corbelling, the brick pilasters that you're seeing.
It just start to really give it a strong character, even though it's not necessarily a transparent use. So these are solid doors, solid brick, can't really see through the wall. And then on the right side there, again, there's a little profile that shows how we're stepping and just that dimensional change in plan.
And then this is a vignette. The colors here are not necessarily what we're after. But it shows that back, that northwest corner, the beginning of the memory lane coming from West Haven. Brittany talked about adding brick at the back of the development.
That was a comment that we heard last month as well. Treat portions of that back as if it's also the front. Bring the brick and the materiality and the change in massing to the backside of the building as well.
And so we've done just that, and this is looking at that northwest corner, where you see all the brick detailing coming together along the memory walk and then further up at that corner. We talked a little bit about windows last week, and so we are proposing vinyl windows.
There was earlier discussion about vinyl windows. I do have a sample that I'll pass around here. Vinyl windows have come a long way. They're very efficient. They're thermally broken, so they do contribute to the sustainability and energy efficiency of the building.
The manufacturing and the process now allows for us to have a lot of colors. We're proposing black vinyl windows along the perimeter of the building. We had talked about the depth. I know with vinyl windows, the frame does need to come fairly close or flush, if not project slightly beyond the fiber cement panel.
And that's the detail that we need so that we can caulk around the perimeter and provide a proper seal. However, with the manufacturer that we're looking at, or similar manufacturers, some of them do have the ability to provide that deep back set, which is the frame that we have at the top there.
Where the frame does stay fairly flush with the exterior, but the glazing and the sash, the window itself, gets pushed in to provide some additional depth. So typical frame, we put the frame right at the edge and put the glazing right at the face, so the whole thing feels fairly flat.
With profiles like this, we're able to get the glass pushed in so we can get a deeper shadow line within the window frame itself. So it really help provide that depth. We are proposing that on the west main facade, on the west elevation where we have the memory walk, knowing that that's where the building is going to be experienced from close proximity, with people walking right under those elevated levels where the vinyl windows are proposed.
Along the east and the north sides, we are proposing to stick to the original frame, which is the one at the bottom there. So we've got a couple of details here showing that window profile and brick shown in fiber cement and the range of depth that we're able to achieve with that deep back set profile.
These are some images from the manufacturer that we are looking at as basis of design. It's hard to tell that that's a vinyl window. It really looks like a metal frame from an aesthetic standpoint. They've come a long way in terms of being able to provide...
They used to have a lot of curves and bends in these in the fabrication process. But with the higher end products, they're now able to get these profiles that are fairly rectangular, and they almost look exactly like, from a distance, almost exactly like aluminum windows.
Just click one. The storefront, we've got the details here. We didn't hear concerns on this. We are keeping everything at the ground where we have the amenities, where we have the front lobbies, and where we touch the ground, we're using storefront.
And then fiber cement is another one that we talked about last month. Similar to the vinyl windows, fiber cement has come a long way. We're looking at James Hardie as the basis for design here. Big part of the perception of the fiber cement panel is typically where you might see the product looking like it's aging quickly.
It typically ends up being around at the joints where you have the panel-to-panel conditions. We are proposing a reveal system, easy trim reveal, that's a heavier gauge. And it's a lot more durable than your typical aluminum Hardware or the reveals that you use with fiber cement install, this is certainly far more superior.
I'll pass these around so you can see the gauge that we're looking at. But also compared to a batten install that tends to age quickly, and then it's very hard to keep those joints straight. So with this product here, we can get a much cleaner joint.
And that typically really is how the fiber cement is perceived. These are a couple of example projects that actually LV Collective developed. This is in Columbus, Ohio. You can see all of the elevated panel there.
That's a fiber cement panel, and I believe that's using the easy trim reveal. This next one here is in Athens. This is one that actually I personally worked on with the LV Collective team, and I can say that that one does have the easy trim reveal that I'll pass around.
This project, however, did not have the deep set frame. So this was the typical vinyl window where you can kind of see in these photos, the face of the glazing is fairly close to the exterior finish. So we're kind of proposing a slightly different approach here as I mentioned.
And then lastly, this is the solar study. We've kind of looked at it at four times during the year just to show how this building impacts the surrounding area. Happy to answer any questions on that. And then finally, just the materials that we're proposing.
So with that said, I'm happy to pass these around. This is that black vinyl window that we're talking about. Fully, it's thermally broken. I'll pass the easy trim reveal, and I've got a couple of the Hardie fiber cement panels in here.
I'll put them in the box as well. They kind of click into the hardware, so if you want to see how it all comes together. Maybe I'll start this one on... Can I pass this? I'll start this one on this side.
And then, of course- I'm sorry. Thank you ... And then I also have a couple of great samples here. We haven't necessarily zeroed in exactly on which products we'll be using, but you can see they're all kind of in the same range of colors.
So I'm happy to answer those if needed. With that said, I'm happy to take any questions, and Brittany is available as well. Great. Thank you. We'll start with any questions from the public. Let's see.
A few folks have come in and joined us. Thank you for joining us tonight. So start with questions. I know some of y'all weren't here at the beginning, we are going to allow three minutes for questions from the public.
Then we'll allow questions from the BAR, then we'll allow comments from the public, and then comments from the BAR. So just our typical procedure. Just want to remind everybody since we've had some folks join us.
So again, we'll start with questions from the public. Let's start online. Anybody, Kate? No hands raised. Okay. Anyone from the public here this evening would like to speak, please come up to the podium, state your name and- Locality ...
locality. You're not required to state your address anymore, I don't believe. My name's Emily Dreyfuss, and I'm here on behalf of the Legal Aid Justice Center. Could you please clarify, are these questions for the developer or questions for the BAR members?
You need to address your questions to us. Yes. Okay. Well, I sent an email yesterday that hopefully most of you have read. So, one of the concerns which has a question is about asking their intentions for community dialogue.
There, to my knowledge, has been no attempted community dialogue since the last BAR meeting. I work closely with the Public Housing Association of Residents, so I think I would have heard if there had been some follow-up.
But it's concerning that the last time they were here, they heard that you were going to approve, and then the dialogue seems to have stopped. So if you could ask their intentions and set up a timeline for check-ins, that's my question.
I didn't phrase it like a question, but could you please do that? Let's see. The perspective view that I requested from 806 Hardie Drive is something that I think you all would benefit from as well, understanding how things will look from the street level.
The plan for the West Haven redevelopment will ultimately have tall buildings where it will be window to window at the lower floors. So it would be helpful if we could get more information, and I would like to ask if you could request that perspective view and not approve until you get that information.
I have lots of questions about the solar study, and you all probably know a lot more about solar studies than I do. But at a minimum, would you please ask them to do one that reflects 9:00 a.m., 3:00 p.m., and 6:00 p.m.
in addition to the noon view, because I think as the sun moves, it will change the shadow. Lastly, and this may be the most impactful thing, is whether you could do more to ask them about greenery in the back.
And currently from the street view, I don't think most people will be able to even see the greenery if it's low. So it would need to be tall trees that could survive in the shadow of the building with a lot of shade.
And if you could please take any ideas that you have and help ensure that large trees or perhaps a hedge or other attractive materials could soften the view for residents of West Haven, who will be the most harmed folks, obviously, with this development.
And I do also want to just say thank you for all that you did on the Mark. I don't think I've been back to the podium since then, but we appreciated that. Thank you very much. All right, any other questions from the public?
Okay. Questions from the BAR? I had a couple, and if you want to... Let's see. Answer a question? I'm happy to. Does that work? Yeah. You should go ahead. Yeah. So just a quick rattle down. Public engagement dialogue, ask intentions, which you did speak to before some folks came, so you can repeat yourself there.
The perspective view, solar study, and greenery in the back. And I think some of these, Mohammed will speak to maybe, but go ahead. Yeah. My choice would be not to speak to it, but I will because there's a specific question.
Multiple attempts were made via email, and I can provide those emails for public record, and I can provide phone calls to where contact was attempted with all community members, and they were all copied, but with a specific direction towards attending the West Haven Planners meeting.
Two attempts were made, and both times, the day of, I was asked to attend virtually, and then when I asked for the details of the virtual meeting, I was no longer invited. Hmm. The purpose of that West Haven Planners meeting was to go through a lot of those questions.
The intent of the first one, in my mind, was to talk about the building overall, but I was told by the leader of that West Haven Planner meeting, who was not on behalf of West Haven, it's CHRA. I was told that the purpose of the meeting was just for the ground-level memory walk, and I said, "Great, that's perfect." I was hopeful to come to this meeting with some dialogue on that between us and the community.
But like I said, two attempts in writing, follow-up calls. We had the discussion with Mr. Sales, with CHRA, and hopefully you guys can understand why I did not want to get into that here. That's not the point of this meeting.
But at the same time, if a question is asked, I'd like to respond to that, and I will go on public record and say, again, our intent is to dialogue with the community. I hope the community's intent is to dialogue with us.
Okay. Thank you. There were three other questions. Yeah, I guess, well, and or some of these are- So that answers the trees in the back. So the trees in the back are a little tricky. We're happy to discuss that in detail right now and put on our plans what is controllable within our property line.
I'm not evading that. If we just want to ignore the community dialogue and just put what you guys see fit, great. Let's do that. But the intent was, it's a little fuzzy because the property line is right in the middle between our building and the six-story West Haven building, and some of the plans that I've seen from West Haven have improvements on our property line.
Hmm. Which is okay. We're open to that. But how can I design landscaping without knowing what's on our property line? We're happy to provide that. But without the opportunity to have that dialogue, bit of a conundrum.
Was there another question that I missed? I think that answers the back and- Solar study. It was good to take- I will. We did have four different times on the solar study, but I'll let Mohammed speak to that.
We're good. For dates. Pull that back up. All right. We do have different dates on the solar study. Put it back on the screen. And obviously, at noon is when the sun is up high. Early in the morning, it will be a little bit lower.
In the afternoon, it will be a little bit lower. But we picked one time in the day to show how it would be at noon, recognizing that that's probably when you're going to get the most sun because the sun is going to start dropping as it gets early in the morning, further in the afternoon.
But that was kind of four times in a year, picking a noon time just to see how it impacts the surrounding area. And I feel like you do have some landscape plans with proposed plantings at the back of the property, correct?
We do. That is correct. And I can scroll through these quickly. Yeah. It's page nine of this, the middle. Yep. So yeah. We did our representative landscape plans. It was a specific request from the community as a part of a negotiated community benefits agreement that has not been signed, but it is still our public intent to work towards that.
It was the community's request that we use Water Street Studios for the ground level, or just landscaping, specifically on the memory walk and in between our two buildings. We committed to that. We continue to commit to that.
However, we are happy to adjust these representative plannings however any one of you see fit. Okay. I think what we're going to do is When we get to our deliberation is go with what we were presented.
Because that's what we need to react to. We have a series of slides in here in the package, page seven all the way through 12 in your package, that has the trees, lighting, furniture as a representation of what was proposed.
And I think the only other thing to really address really quick from a massing standpoint, related to how the building feels from a couple of areas around the site, we do have a couple of these massing, or just these studies that we've put together, looking at the building from Hardy and 8th.
This is the view on the screen. And then, this is page 25 in your package. This is looking at it from 10th and Page. There's a couple of other views that are further up, looking back towards West Haven, and then our building in the backdrop just from a progression of scale and height.
So those are in your package as well, pages 23 through 25. Thank you. So we're still in questions from the BAR period right now. I had a question. So the two examples you showed us from Columbus, Ohio and Athens, Georgia, can you tell us when those were built?
Like what year? Yes. The Athens one completed two years ago. August of '25. Okay. So 2024 delivery, August 2024, and August 2025. Okay. Or maybe a little sooner, May, June. Yeah. May, June delivery. So just two to three years old, tops.
Yeah. Okay. I was asking just in terms of some of the questions that are maybe about the fiber cement panel and just aging and things, but they're brand new. Do you also... I think I read that the bricks are full thickness, right?
The samples- That's correct ... you have are just for color. That's right. Okay. Yeah. Sorry. And then on those, the window depth sheet, which I had it pulled up before. I scrolled. Yeah. I saw some were, I think it was plus or minus three inches to four inches deep, recessed, and then the others were plus or minus one and a half to three.
So I was just curious. That seems like a bigger range, and I was curious if you could- Yeah, that's the two different options. So we're proposing a deeper inset for where the glazing is going to be located.
That's the three and a half inches along West Main and the Memory Walk. Mm-hmm. And then for the two other sides, we are proposing to go with a conventional vinyl window, which would then be the lower, the reduced depth.
The inch and a half, I believe. Yeah, I guess that's what I was curious about. Right here it says, "Varies from inch and a half to three and a half," and that's a two-inch variance. I just didn't know if that- Yeah ...
does it depend on the exact location on the building, or is it- Yeah, I think it's a little hard to see, but maybe let me zoom. So this one here, this frame here, you can kind of see where the window is, so where the glazing is going to be located right here.
It's kind of pushed a good bit from the outside face, the outside edge of the frame. And so that would be the three and a half. Uh-huh. And that would be proposed on the vinyl windows that are fronting West Main and the ones that are fronting the Memory Walk.
Right. And then the lower end of the range would be, let me zoom in on that one, which would be this profile here. You can see the glazing is kind of sitting fairly close to the outside edge of the frame.
Mm-hmm. This is proposed for those windows on the east side facing the rail, and then on the side facing the north side, facing the back. Okay. So that would be a shallower plane or depression from face of frame to face of glass.
So the top image matches the two left-hand details, and the bottom image matches the two middle details, I guess. Yeah. Right details. So they're really kind of drawn to handle both in a way. It's just really saying from the face of the fiber cement to- Uh-huh ...
to the face of the glazing is going to be an inch and a half, plus or minus, on the east side and the north side. And it's going to be three and a half on the south and the west. Got you. But both of the images say inch and three-eighths, and maybe I'm confused.
Oh, the inch and three-eighths is actually the overhang from the flange- Okay ... to the outside edge of the frame. This is- From the underside? Yeah, this is the outer from where the flange is installed to the outside edge of the frame.
Got it. It's really the same because the finish is the same. So this is sheathing and the fiber cement panel, and then that frame extends out so that then you can caulk around the perimeter for a seal.
Got it. So it's really not... The inch and three-eighth is from the flange out, as opposed to where the glass is sitting. Okay. Got you. Thank you. Those are the questions I have for right now. Some might pop up, but I want to open it up to the rest of our happy band.
Jen? I have a number of landscape-related questions, but I don't know if we want to lump all those. I think it makes sense to try and lump questions, and then we'll get into comments as well. But- Yeah.
So do you want to do arc, since you're sort of discussing architecture? Yeah, maybe so. Thank you. Any other comments or questions on the windows? That's a good call. Thanks. Carl brought up from the previous one about the quality- Mm-hmm ...
of these vinyl windows. Are these commercial Windows and come with a warranty- ... that will work in a commercial building? Absolutely. This sample here specifically is VPI, is the window manufacturer that provides it, and that's a commercial-grade vinyl window.
Can you pass it down? That was great. Our preference is to keep it open. The specs are going to be calling out for these quality windows, but we would be looking to bid the job at some point, and we want to be able to keep it open to other manufacturers.
But that's the level of detail and quality that we'd be after. And it would be a manufacturer that can provide that deeper frame so that we can insert the glass further in from the outside frame. And two things on the manufacturer.
That comment's going to come in from me, because I've developed projects where you commit to it, and then they go out of business, or it's just not available due to lead times. So it's not that we are unwilling to commit, and that's why we've tried to add the dimension here.
We're very happy to commit to the dimensions. It's just trying to give ourselves a little flexibility when it comes to buyout and scheduling, sequencing, to be able to have a little flexibility as it relates to manufacturers for specs.
Absolutely. And then also wanted to talk through the window color. One thing we talked through is LV does black windows on all of our buildings, which is a premium, and also limits the groups that we can go to.
If you want to talk through- Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah. Long ago, vinyl windows only came in white, ivory. It was two or three colors. And then as the manufacturing process advanced, they were able to start to get an array of different colors.
Typically, the higher-end manufacturers, the higher-end products are the ones that you're going to find that are able to offer these different colors, especially the darker colors. And so that sample here is what we would be looking at doing along the perimeter, and it's an indication that it's a higher quality window.
It's not single-family product. There's a lot more to it than color, but it's the color, it's the efficiency, the way it's thermally broken, and the efficiency it provides. There's a lot of aspects to it.
But this is definitely a commercial that would be able to offer the types of warranty that LV Collective is going to be expecting on a project like this. I have a question about what you were showing on your details and this sample.
They look like two different kinds of windows. This looks like it's a bigger scale, representing a facsimile of a storefront. Whereas the ones you were showing on the screen, I don't know if they're in our packet.
I believe that this section here specifically is taking, not at the frame, but it's taking at a- But I think those are just passing on ... at a sash condition, at an inside where you've got the top panel and the bottom panel there, the top and bottom sashes, and it's not necessarily showing the actual frame.
I wonder if I can find a- This is a storefront section that you're showing us here. This? Yeah. This is a vinyl window. Is that a structural mull that's- This right here? I'm agreeing with Dave here. I don't see where that is in the section.
That's because the section here that you're seeing, you're talking about these details, correct? Yeah. Yeah. So this section here is showing the frame and the sash. I'm going to zoom in on it again real quick.
This is showing the top frame. This section would probably be just this portion here at an intersection between the mullions. If you have a double window, that would be that intersection right there. So this doesn't include the frame.
So all the steel and everything that's in there would be at a mullion condition, but not like your typical window condition. Right. It's not the frame, because the frame doesn't need the stiffening because it's already attached to- Right ...
studs. But all of this, except for that stiffener in here, all of that is vinyl. The only metal in this is the little rectangular tube in here. Mm-hmm. This thing falls though. I don't think the panel's here.
Anything else on windows? I think we're trying to focus on that. Okay. Yeah. Window question. So you're talking about, I know you've said this multiple times, the West Main Street and the west facade- That's right ...
will be deeper. What happens where you turn the corner with the brick from- Mm-hmm ... the West Main Street side to the east side? It almost seems like the It would make more sense if... Does the thick and thin only apply to the fiber cement, or does it also apply to the brick?
No, just the fiber cement- Okay ... because with the brick we already have- Okay ... four inches of depth- Mm-hmm ... so we're assuming we're going to use the regular profile vinyl window. Okay. That makes sense.
Thank you. That was- Yeah. I'm sorry. I should've clarified that. Brick usually gives us a decent bit of depth anyways, and so we didn't think that we needed to go above and beyond there. And then again, the reasoning behind West Main and the west facade is that's kind of where a lot of the pedestrian traffic is happening, and so we figured, to get that value, you're going to be experiencing it from a close proximity.
Let's put the upgraded window there. And then on the other sides, you don't really get that close to it, and even when you do, you're kind of either under an overhang or tight to the building. Yeah. You don't get that perspective on it.
And it looks like there aren't any conditions where you're turning a corner and you're switching from one type to another. No. So, yeah. No, it's always separated with brick. Okay. That's correct. Okay.
And the addition of the brick at the northwest corner kind of gave us that separation, because otherwise that back corner would've been a- Yeah ... transition, but we don't have that anymore. Okay. That's it.
I'm good for windows. Okay. Yes. Kate, you're looking at the architects. No more window questions for me. Okay. Yeah. David, you're good? I guess I have one other question. I was noticing on the top of the southeast corner, which is probably the most visible- Southeast corner ...
corner. You know, the one that's facing- That's it ... out to the tower. Yeah, there you go. So are those storefronts up there, up top? Up here? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. This is an amenity space up at the top of the building, and with the size window and the configuration that we're doing there, we couldn't do that with vinyl.
Vinyl still has some limitations on size of window and all of that, so we would still have... Now, by the time we work through this, I would imagine we would actually have thickened mullions. It wouldn't be this repetitive two-inch or three-inch mullion all the way through.
We would probably, just for design loads and wind loads, and just for full transparency, I think when we advance it some, there's going to be some thickened mullions. So this will be a series of storefront windows, not one continuous storefront, but we're talking about a very limited gap between them.
Enough to get a stud so that you can brace it. So from a design pressure standpoint, you're not designing for this really long window. You've got some stiffeners every now and then to be able to support the window and the opening in case of wind.
So you have storefront on the top, and then down at the base, you put- Along the entire public realm, that would be storefront ... Is that a storefront or a curtain wall? It would be storefront. In this case here, we're seeing that darker band.
That's actually the floor level in there. And so that will provide support for that. We couldn't do 15, 16-feet tall storefronts. You tend to be limited to 10, 10 and a half feet, 11 max, depending on manufacturers.
And so with this one, it would be separated, and at the lobby where we have the double height, there's going to be a steel frame so that we can split the vertical span into two storefront windows. That would be the opposite corner right here.
So what is that thicker... Yeah. If you go back to that other image. Helps. Yeah. What is the wider bands? What is that made of? This one here, that would be a slab cover. It'll be a metal cover. Part of the storefront system?
It might be some manufacturers offer that slab cover, or kind of a blank panel that matches exactly what finish they have. But most cases, even if they can provide it, it's either brick, metal, depending on the size.
It's either brick, metal, or some sort of a metal panel that we would install there. But the intent here is to make the bottom storefront and the top storefront feel like they're part of an assembly. So it's not broken with some other material in between.
So it would be metal to match the color and finish of the storefront. What are the manufacturers you typically source, or is there a- We use YKK as basis of design- It's the same speech ... but for the same reasons that Vidia had mentioned, we tend to keep it open from a spec standpoint.
It wasn't me. We just kind of do the performance spec. YKK, I believe they do offer that cover. Now, for this project here, there's going to be, just from an energy standpoint, whether we have to do rigid insulation.
We're probably going to do an energy model to understand that better. And depending on what we have to do, if we have to insulate the edge of slab or not, it can kind of restrict some of the options we have available as well.
Thanks. Great. We'll go to questions on the landscape, since that was first brought up. Jen, do you want to start? Sure. So I apologize in advance. I'm at my first BAR meeting, so I might say or do things out of order, or might say my comments when I'm supposed to be asking questions, so.
Try and stick to questions right now. Yes. I'll try to stick to questions. You might wonder what my questions- You'll get to comment. Okay. It's hard to contextualize some- That's right ... questions without commenting.
So I think the question was raised about what is the memory walk? I would love a little history on what that is. It doesn't come up. I don't see- I guess... Sorry, I'm going to step in. Okay. Thank you.
We're not judging the memory walk this evening. Okay. All we're going to look at is the vehicular pedestrian connector that's to the west of the building That connects West Main Street- Okay ... to the West Haven neighborhood behind- Okay ...
kind of as it's designed. Okay, so we shouldn't call it a memory walk then yet? Right. Okay. We'll call it a driveway because that's what it feels like to me, is a driveway. It's a drive and a pedestrian area.
Okay. And I think the applicants made it clear that they would like to continue a conversation about a future, some sort of memory walk or some sort of way to engage the community in the design- Okay ...
of the building. But, that would come to us later if staff determines- Okay ... it appropriate. I am happy to talk through the history. There's a lot, if you'd like me to. Well, no, I'm happy to move on.
Okay. The question I think related to that, though, is in last month, in the conversation you mentioned, I listened to it on YouTube, the intention to make more out of this space in the front of the building so that that would extend to the front, and then you also talked about a dedicated space between the buildings- Yes ...
between the West Haven. There's a lot missing for me on this drawing, so I'm going to ask a lot of questions about the things that are missing, I don't see. It's intentional, because these are all spaces intended to be designed with the community.
Okay. Just a- I think Kate asked, I think during that- Clarify? Yeah. But whatever is there, we need to approve something that- Right ... if we make an approval tonight, we have to assume that if everything goes bad and you guys don't work with the- Right ...
neighborhood- I agree ... what's in these drawings, we're okay with being pushed. Right. That's right. Okay. I agree with that. And is within our guidelines. So- I would encourage Jen, if she sees things- Yeah ...
that are missing, then- I agree. Just that's where it came, as a question. I would ask that we look at it- Right. So I'm going to- Ignore the memory walk, just give me comments. Okay. Just- I'm just going to give you...
Yeah. I think Kate did ask in that conversation last month, for a diagram of the public space, and right now I don't feel like I really understand what's- Consider it's all public. We have to ignore the memory walk, and I would review it- Okay.
So the- ... as if it's all public ... so the area in the front is all public? Yes. So where the seating is located- Everything at the ground level is public, for the purposes of this meeting Okay. So the furnishings that are shown on Main Street are for everybody?
Built-in furnishings. Okay. And there's no- I would not weigh in on movable furnishings. Okay. Built-in furnishings, yes. But there's no furnishings shown on the west side or the back side? We cannot, and this was a question that was asked by CHRA.
So just for clarity, the gray area where it shows 22 feet, that is a true drive aisle into the deck. The area in green with the kind of festoon lighting that's up above, that is a service alley for two things.
Legally, we have to provide access for two things, and that is our utility equipment that's right behind the building in terms of transformers, and then also to the cell tower that is number five on this.
That is not a part of our property. It is outside of our property line and it will remain. So vehicles are running through there. There will be bollards that are movable. You cannot put permanent furnishings, as it relates also fire access, that's how they're getting back there.
So you cannot have any permanent furnishings that would obstruct the fire department's ability to service this from a safety standpoint and from vehicles being able to access the other side. Maybe I have control to do that.
I got it. So now the area where there's a trellis, that is built-in. It is representative. If there are any comments around the look or the placement, now it's there because it clears the turn in order to get to the transformers that are there and to get to the cell tower.
But that is the intent for the built-in space that serves as a transition from those stairs, the monumental stairs, that we are aligning directly with, and maybe it would be good to go to the site plan to help her understand the context of this.
So this shows you how the outdoor space is connecting directly between the two newly proposed West Haven projects. This is their new plan, not how it exists today. So it is aligned and the intent is where that blue, the double-sided arrow is there.
That is where there is a moment to be designed with the community. Okay. A lot of the things you just mentioned are not indicated at all. Festoon lighting, bollards, trellis, monumental stairs are not indicated anywhere on the site plan.
Can you go to the site plan that we presented in the last meeting, please? Do you have that where it is, "We have landscape plans"? Yeah. And apologies, this was all presented in the last meeting. So we didn't include it, not to evade it, but because I was under the impression that we just didn't know that there was going to be a new member.
So again, our intent is not to evade or not provide information. The information was just provided previously, and we're happy to go through it again. Okay. I guess as BAR members, if we're being asked to vote tonight, we look at only the submittal that we've received for this meeting.
Yeah. Just for clear position. We're happy to- So we can't look at anything that we received in May. Okay. Understood. Then- And I figure we got pictures- I know it sounds redundant, but yeah ... from the front.
I think this is in your package, it was just not in the presentation- Yes ... that we reviewed today. That's right. In the- Exactly, and apologies for miscommunicating that. Okay, thank you. Yeah, as he said, he was picking up kind of where he left off last month, but it is in the package.
I saw some lighting Yeah There is lighting, but there's no festoon lighting, there's no bollards, there's no trellis, and there's no monumentals stairs. I didn't see bollards, yeah. The monumental stairs are not on our property.
Okay. Well, that's good to know. I guess- And the lighting, no, we don't have a spec. And again, this is where it gets really hard. We specifically discussed not getting into detail. The only reason I mentioned festoon lighting is because the strings are overhead.
I was just mentioning that for reference to describe where the area is. So those zigzags are... Is- Intended to be festoon lighting. Okay. I thought that was pavement markings. It shows pavement markings.
Oh, are they pavement markings? Oh, apologies then. That's my misunderstanding. And part of what we're doing is, the 22-foot wide lane- Mm-hmm ... day in, day out, it's going to be used for parking up to the parking entry.
The section beyond that, where we've got the pavement patterns and the greenery, that's going to be ex-pavement. Mm-hmm. We do need to design it to obviously withstand fire access, and also access to the cell tower, and if needed, access to our transformers that are located at the back.
So it is going to be designed to withstand that type of load. But we've changed the pattern so that it's a clear delineation between what is vehicular access to get to the back versus beyond that point, it's emergency services only.
Service access, emergency first responders, that's it. Right. And what we've talked about with the community is even though we cannot do built-ins there, I can provide the emails where we responded in writing saying that we are happy to do programming subject to the fire departments.
So if we wanted to have food trucks in there, if we wanted to have an art show, a market, those are all things, so long as it is temporary and removable, that are all open in discussion. And again, happy to provide those communications.
Okay. The daily use of it, though, would be temporary- Up for discussion. We are open, so long as it is not a permanent obstruction that would stop the fire department from having access or again, from us meeting our legal obligations to allow access to the cell tower and the transformers.
Okay, I'll keep going. Is the walk that is shown there, is that intended to be accessible? Yes, everything has to be accessible. Yes. Okay. The eight-foot walk on the west edge of the property? Yes. Yeah.
Yep, and everywhere. Okay. Yeah. Even though it's coming up the hill from West Haven? We cannot control what is not on our property line. Okay. And then stormwater. I was curious where stormwater will be collected on the site.
I think that's part of that civil engineering package that is currently being reviewed. Okay. I believe that it's going to be under the building in the parking area. But I would need to go and confirm that with the civil engineering team.
Okay. Yeah, I didn't see any indication of any sort of- On the civil- ... collection area on the site ... on the package? Yeah. Yeah, we have not included any civil engineering- It's going to be underground detention anyway.
So that's a part of the site plan approval process, not necessarily- Oh, right ... BAR if it's underground. That's right. Okay. Sort of out of view, so it's not ex- Okay. You know. The downspouts, if there were exterior downspouts- Okay ...
those would be under our purview. If they had a rain garden or a retention pond. Yeah. Okay. For sure. Okay. I just wanted to see- Yeah ... what the intention was there. Absolutely. So, still relevant then, I guess my next question is about archeology.
Given that this has never been developed, have you all considered a phase one to look at? We've taken care of that, and we will adhere to all of the requirements. The most that we can do is start construction, and if something is found, then we'll stop construction.
But as it relates to the design of the building, I'm happy to answer any question of concern around the design of the building. Can I ask staff, is it acceptable for us to request one? It is very common, particularly with a site like this that hasn't been developed, to require a phase one examination.
And these are spaced test pits, but I think much as anything, it's an in-depth document and record evaluation by an archeologist. But if they deem necessary to do any sort of test pits, they might. But this does not become an archeological site.
And unlike where we had at the courts expansion project, where we had documentation of burials, none are suspected here, or at least not a record indicating burials here. So yeah, phase one would be appropriate, and you could use language that we used for the mark for the 218 West Market, simply to say, prior to the issuance of a building permit, a phase one archeological investigation will be completed and provided to staff.
Okay. That is completed already. We can provide it now. Yeah. City staff? What's that? You said by the staff? I thought I had two. Two Provided two stats. Yeah, sorry. That's all right. And on the landscape discussion, I know I handed Carl a suggestion, and he passed it down.
So we're still in questions. We thought it was being passed to the chair, so we- It was. It wasn't that it was- Fair enough. Fair enough. Yeah. Okay. So if you have a point- We'll come to it, I think, in the comments section.
Okay, good. I have a question. Yes. We don't normally talk about the interior of the building, but I think this directly affects the exterior space on the west side of the building. Is there interior access to the trash room from the parking side?
No. Like, how are people bringing their trash down? In the drive by. Oh, there's chutes. Okay. So you don't come down. You're going to drop it in your chute- Okay ... in each floor. So we're not going to have trash sitting outside the trash door?
No. Okay. No, no. And that will have weekly pickup from the truck, probably. We don't know this. Yeah, don't know that yet. Yeah. I think that's to be worked through with the city. We have started those discussions.
Mm-hmm. Weekly would be the minimum- Minimum ... pickup. Yeah, so the doors that we're going to have in the termination room at the ground level, in the trash room, is going to be an overhead door so that when the bins are getting emptied, they're pulled out and put back in, and that overhead door closes.
Usually, we'll have a regular man door in there as well, just because the maintenance wouldn't want to open the overhead door every time just to get in and out of the room. But those would be possibly, that could be designed to be facing the parking.
We have shown one door currently- Mm-hmm ... kind of in that design that we've done with the pilasters and the brick detailing. Mm-hmm. There's one door there, but we've got flexibility there in terms of how we maneuver these bins and the chutes and all that to make it work.
Okay. I wanted to get back to the solar study and the shade analysis- Mm-hmm ... where you have shown the noon. I think it would be helpful to show 9:00 a.m. and 5:00 p.m. on those same dates. And I think that that would help determine what plantings are survivable or thriving- Mm-hmm ...
in that. And also, at your property line, because they may want to do plantings there. Seeing that shade and solar study would be helpful for them. Right. I think that's a good point. Mm-hmm. And follow up with that, I was just curious about the trees that were shown, and the shrubs.
Were those selected by... What was the selection process for those? Were they done by your group or was Water Street involved? You'd mentioned Water Street having been involved in some of the planning at some point.
I was just wondering what the selection process was there. Yeah, so I'm happy to respond. This was done by our in-house landscape group early on as we were starting to advance on the design, and leading up to the submission that we made to come and meet with you in May.
Since then, there has been some updates in terms of the ongoing discussions and Water Street potentially coming back aboard. I think- We have not had any dialogue with Water Street since our August meeting, just for clarity.
Is there a reason why you haven't engaged with them yet? Yes, because it's a larger part of a community benefits agreement, and it was a part of maybe about 200 line items that I was presented with. And because I have not had the opportunity to sit with West Haven, specifically because that's kind of who we interact with the most, there hasn't been an opportunity to engage in that dialogue.
So I don't necessarily want to have conversations with Water Street if I don't know what the community is looking for me to say to Water Street. Do you know if the plants that are shown on this plan adhere to the city's plant, what is it?
Recommendations? What's the right word? Tree list. Tree list. Hopefully. Yeah, I would hope so. I do not know, unfortunately. If not, if there is a preference on the type of plants that go back there, specifically looking at, we don't have any preconceived notions of what goes back there, scale, height, width.
Did staff just- It's truly open for comment. Did staff just confirm, did Kate just confirm that they are on our list? No, she was confirming- It's a sample plant palette. I'm going to ask Kate to respond to that.
I just want to- Well, I've got a follow-up question on that based on the June 4th letter to Timmons from the city planner. It sounds like there are still some issues with streetscape standards, green space, tree requirements, selections.
These are all reasons for denial, and that they're looking for a resubmission. And my question to you is, is that resubmission going to change the site plan that we're looking at? Because again, we're only able to comment or vote on what we see tonight.
Jeff, do you want to speak to that? Yeah, that's what I said earlier. This is the rolling of the dice, if you will. The applicant, if something changes, something substantive, significant, then we have to weigh whether or not, if that's necessary to get an approved site plan.
And that's why I made the note. I'm digging for my staff report. So basically, this would just come back to us to get approved? Well, it's possible, and as I said, again, to make clear that a development plan is not the equivalent of a site plan.
All right. And so acknowledge that up front. And that if what's approved for a COA, presumably if that occurs, then that must be reflected with what's on a development plan. And development plans now are requiring elevations and a level of information which, as I said, I think it's more information.
You should really be looking at this. If I were an applicant, I'd be looking at my site plan because I'd want to make sure I know where everything's going to go and where everything will fit, and then I'd make sure the building fits within that.
So, the risk here is the developers. And if you all approve the design as presented, and later on a site plan or development plan can't be approved without changes to that, then the risk they face is to come back and modify their design.
And we tried to do our best here in working with staff. We went ahead. We were in a site plan process before, and that's our intent to continue with the site plan process. We switched to the development process for the process of transparency here so that we could outline what doesn't match, but that is typically a part of the process.
We're in our first round. You're always going to have comments, right? You're always going to have comments in the first round, and that's simply where we are. It's a little tough to ask the development community to go all the way through to construction documents to get- Right ...
your site plan without knowing if BAR supports you. So just not really sure how to move forward. I appreciate that. Yeah. But put yourself in our shoes, where typically we have a more specific... I mean, it doesn't have to be fully construction drawings, but we are usually presented with more specific species of tree canopies.
Those are things that matter a lot to us. I completely understand, and that's where, again, I'm in a bit of a hard place when it comes to landscaping as well, because it's all a part of the community dialogue.
And the last thing I want is to design this in a silo and do what the community thinks I'm doing. So what I'm trying to tell you is we are happy to put on there anything that's on the list of requirements.
No matter what, we can't get a permit without site plan approval. You can't build this without getting to a site plan approval. So you guys have comfort that something from the city's list of requirements is going to be there.
That comfort is inherent because we can't build it without doing that. So what I'm suggesting is if there's something from the list that we have to pick from either way that you guys would like to see, please tell me.
I have a question for Carl or staff perhaps. The planning requirements for this site, would that just be along the street, right along the main street, or does that apply to all four sides of the building?
Like the trees. Tree canopy is the whole- The whole thing ... whole site. Okay. There's streetscape requirements, and then there's a tree canopy for the whole site. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Does that answer your question?
Yeah. If I can- So they will be overseeing all the planted trees and- If I can clarify something. Kate, can you just go to one of those conceptual landscape plan views that they have? And fortunately, my resume is many years in construction, so I do have a bit of a unique view when things change on a project site.
Now go to the... Kate, in their submittal, just one of the landscaping views. Let me turn it different way. Yeah. And so what I want to make clear to everyone, and not only to you all and the applicant, but to the public record, because it has happened where buildings get tweaked.
Where there's a door might become a window, or where there's a window might have to be shifted because a mechanical room wall has to be built. So if at some point in the future they come back and say, "These transformers or whatever they are, are over here," or, "This little inset isn't there, this wall continues," I'm probably going to work with them on that.
I don't sit down and say, "No, you said this thing was going to be working and not." "You said this thing is going to be 12 feet, six inches. It better be 12 feet, six inches and not 12 feet, eight inches." You all are looking at this at a step-back level from construction drawings, as you've said.
And when projects of this scale, when they go in and, say, figure out where the transformers are going to go, figure out where the mechanical system's going to go, things move around a little bit, and I allow myself the freedom to work with the applicant.
Now, if they came in and where this plaza in the front is suddenly in-filled and the storefronts are only on the two ends, we're going to come have a conversation. So I just want to make that clear to everyone out there that when we talk about what tweaks may occur- tweaks happen.
A landscape plan is required for the site plan and certainly a more robust landscape plan than what you're seeing here. Something that's detailed, something that meets the tree canopy requirements. With our new ordinance, there's a lot more specificity in that, that they have to meet.
So, that's why I say I'm okay with this because I know, for example, the lighting is addressed in our code. They can't put bright lights with a lot of glare, and I put in some conditions that address the parking lot.
An option, and James, if I'm jumping ahead on my question, but as far as the landscape goes, if absolutely necessary, I could omit the landscaping from this COA. It's very different from a-- I know we don't do incremental COAs, and that means we don't say, "Oh, I like the height, massing, and scale." We approve it, come back later with the design.
The landscape, and what I'm speaking in terms of is the plantings, is a distinct piece that's separable from the design of this building. And if that's a we want clarification on what is planted, particularly on that north boundary, I see no problem with, if you were to approve a COA for the design, omitting the landscaping plan and requiring that they come back for a COA.
And that would be a separate application. It wouldn't be something later. It would be a COA specifically for the plantings or for whatever element of the landscape that you chose. I'm very comfortable with that if it's a means to an end.
I also, what I shared with James, is there's a section of the code that refers to the type of screening between areas of different zoning. We don't have that here, so there's not a required type of landscape screening.
But the code does lay out a series of- Transition ... you see there, transition screen high number two. So it would be helpful if you all are asking. Maybe we're not. I don't know what is the best species to put there or what sequence of plantings to put there.
But if there's an intent that we can establish, and if it's an intent we can establish through reference to these in the code. So you all don't have the authority to say, "You have to meet the code," but you certainly have the purview to say, "Hey, here's a really good example in the code of development.
Let's refer to that." So I'm offering that if that's a helpful way to express what you all are hoping to accomplish something- And a quick question. If we approve the massing as proposed, and the shade makes this screening untenable, then where does that put us?
That's a- There are species that will- Yeah. They can find species that'll fit and that'll grow back there. Okay. There are trees growing on the north side of the flats that are living there. There are trees growing on the north side of lots of tall buildings in town, so they can find something.
And I do think you're hitting on a really good point. I want to make sure I'm saying, I'm not necessarily asking for a specific species. Right. But what I'm saying, what we are happy to commit to is the bullet point list that Jeff put up earlier.
If we want to add a bullet point that says you must have plantings at two feet, four feet, six feet, 12 feet, or a plethora thereof, happy to add that as a kind of option. And I'm happy to outline exactly where that needs to be within the plan.
I would just ask that, of course, that the species is left open to pick from what's allowed within the code. Yeah. It's trying to keep us from going down that path of designing this space- Yeah ... knowing that tree canopy and- Yeah ...
coverage is a requirement of the code. But using our code to express an intent. The goal back there is to achieve X. I think if you all were to say-- If they came back and said, "We can't do this because of the height of our building.
We can't meet the tree canopy requirements," then they have avenues to request a remedy to that. Now, the result may be, well, you all aren't providing the screening type the BAR asked for, then we can have a conversation about that.
But this is a-- I'm trying to think of a means to move forward. And if I can just sidestep for a second. Part of why at the end of the staff report, I took the guidelines, and Carl sees this because I do it for the entrance corridor.
I use a spreadsheet of all of their guidelines, and I say, "Yes, no, here's what happens. Here's what applies." I did that here, and it's unusual, but this is a lot of a discussion we've been having internally is, what are the guidelines, and what are BAR's purview?
And an explanation that's helpful is our guidelines don't say that you have to provide building sections of the level of detail. A lot of these are because it helps when we have to review the building permit that the drawings are realizing what's shown in the renderings and elevations that you all have looked at.
So there are-- I appreciate there are times when we ask for more detail than maybe the guidelines suggest we ask for, but there's also places where the guidelines are fairly general, and so I'm just trying to illustrate that by adding it here.
So I think, again, landscaping, the intent back there is to create screening. What type of screening, I think you can express by reference to the ordinance. If what types of trees and spacing and what, ultimately, that landscaping will be back there, if you want to see that in specificity, then you can omit that from the COA and say that it comes back.
And then the last thing I would say is that there is-- Breck and I talk a lot about landscape architecture and how it fits into the VAR process. And I think there's that distinction between a designed landscape where someone is achieving something with the terraced and plants and everything, versus providing the trees as required by code.
So it's sort of that, if this were intended as this landscape that 100 years from now is a Lawrence Halprin landscape that's available for the National Register, or what are the trees necessary to provide shade and provide buffer?
So that distinction applies here. These are not the gardens in front of the palace. But I think this is a vernacular landscape. Right. I mean, this is a cultural landscape. Probably since the 1960s, this has been a site where the community has accessed West Main Street, and so I think we need to give it much more consideration than just a sidewalk.
Right. So I think- And that is within your purview, yes So- Yeah. That's where I probably do need to speak to the history. So taking a step back to about a year ago, so the memory walk was on the other side of the building, and there was a detailed landscape plan designed by Water Street.
And the community, understandably so, wanted a direct connection to Main Street. At that point, their location of the walkway was also a little closer to ours, but it still jogged. So they just wanted a straight shot.
So in between August and today, West Haven reimagined their plans, not to necessarily align with anything, just conditions on their site, and it moved to where it is now. In response to that, we've relocated ours to align with it so that we could provide that direct straight access, and we're even providing-- We've already talked to Fire.
We're even providing the walkway all the way across Main Street to the southern side so that there's safe ADA access with a signalized crosswalk to get to the bus stop. With that, however, there's about six feet of topo that doesn't show in the plans, running from our driveway all the way to the bridge.
Remember, bridge connection is right there. There's only one place that the city will allow us to access our garage, and it's right there. So if we want the direct connection to align with West Haven per the community, not us, per the community, then how do you fit all of that within there?
So there are a lot of layers- Right. Totally ... to this. It's not meant to be an eight-foot sidewalk, and that's why we're trying to figure out ways to wrap it all-- The intent is that it wraps all the way around the building, right?
And the reason that we can't get to specificity on the landscape plans is because, again, the West Haven plans show improvements on our property line, and we want to be able to do that. That's the right thing to do.
We want that connection to happen, and I know we're focused on the historic district here, not the relation to West Haven, right? That needs to be remembered, right? But the intent is that it's wrapping all the way around, so we can't get into specificity of the landscaping without having that community meeting, which again, was attempted to have twice by the time we got here.
Those meetings are biweekly. An attempt was made at each meeting. Right, and I appreciate that. So- I just want to say, I totally understand what you're saying. I just want to go on record that this is not just a planting plan.
We're not just looking at- And we're not suggesting that. Right. I'm talking amongst ourselves. This is a really important connection for the community that has been there as long as West Haven has been there, and I just want- There's not a dedicated- I'm not saying- It's a parking lot right now ...
I'm not saying a specific connection. I'm just saying there is a connection to West Main Street from West Haven, and I just want us to be able to, like, really know- There's no connection. I want to make sure that's clear.
There is no connection right now. There's people that walk- But there is no connection. You are walking up a- I'm talking about a vernacular. Like, there's an experiential connection that people make.
They walk from West Haven. I see the path. I mean, I've seen the paths. I've seen people walking. Understood. So I'm talking-- I'm not talking about a design. I'm talking about a vernacular- I totally- ...
a cultural landscape that exists. So I think we just need to really be thoughtful about- And we're trying to be very thoughtful and inclusive So I think what, like we talked about earlier, that level of community involvement hasn't happened yet for whatever reasons.
And so that fleshed out full design isn't what we're looking at tonight. Right. So we either-- We're going to have to grapple with that in a few minutes. I think I want to recognize we're still in our questions phase.
Mm-hmm. Yep. So if we can table that for a little bit, and then we'll come back to it, I think that'd be helpful. Let's talk about any other questions on... We've talked landscape, we've talked windows, details.
Questions- I have some questions ... from the BAR. Sorry? I have some questions. Yeah. No, what topic do you want to go to next? Does it have to be a topic, or can we- I just feel like it's been helpful for our note-taking, for my note-taking and- Okay.
Well- ... whatnot, to try and talk in brick, HardiePlank. What do you want to go to next? I want to go to, well- And we're still in questions. Okay. So I'll start simple. Okay. Let's do materials. We'll talk about fiber cement.
There you go. Thank you. So, you're going to use the James Hardie with the finish that comes with it. Is that the plan? That is the intent. Mm-hmm. In some markets, we have found that painting the Hardie is the way that it's done in these specific markets.
Mm-hmm. Our preference is always to find a color, if it works with the palette. They have limited colors, but it has expanded over the years. Our preference is to find something that comes in pre-finished, and it installs, it gets touched up as need be.
But that tends to actually age better than the paint on-site product. And I think this is me just CYA or whatever, but, or covering my own a*s, but sorry. You're going to use the smooth finish, not the wood grain?
That's correct. Okay. All right. That was my question on HardiePanel. Are there other questions on HardiePanel before I- ... move on? Only questions I want to ask. And those are the proposed colors? Yeah.
Do you guys want to see these again? I can pass them back down, with the brick as well. Those are four colors in here. We only have three on the building as it stands currently. So we have the white and the dark.
These are the accents. All right. And I think the lighter of the two grays is what we would use as the mid-gray. So this one would be our darker. That would be the dark, and then that would be the mid.
So this one's probably going in the trash? Probably. Okay. Yeah. I think those two are pretty similar. Yes. One's a little gray, one's a little green, but we get it. There's a dark, there's a light gray, and a white.
That's right. And I can... Right. And then for the brick, remind us, is this just texture, or is it all three colors, or- The brick is just one color currently that we've got proposing. These are just alternatives that we're weighing in, just proximity to the site, where it's coming from.
But it's really just to say that this is the tone and the shade that we're going for. They're all fairly simple. One has a little bit- Back to the notes that Zoning gave you guys. There are some modifications, variances, and waivers that they are expecting you guys to address.
And these are not gotcha questions. These are more of just me trying to understand the building better. So the requirements of the streetscape, I think I understood the... Is it just where the trees are relative to the sidewalk?
Is that the question? And have you narrowed in on... In our packet, we're seeing the trees against the street. But I think there's a screenshot somewhere in here of a site plan that shows the sidewalk between the trees and the street.
That- Which ways are you expecting? That's correct. That has to go with the topo that we're working with. We're trying to get that plaza obviously as level as it can be against the building, provide these entry points as much as we can.
There is a slope, that six-foot slope from one end to the other. Mm-hmm. And by doing it, by having the landscaping between the internal sidewalk and the outer sidewalk, we're able to maneuver the grades a little bit better and provide stepping between the internal sidewalk and the external sidewalk.
Mm-hmm. That's working a little bit better. From a utility standpoint, talking with the civil engineer, it was also working a little bit better in terms of being able to run what everyone needs to run underground.
And remind me, Landmark has the same condition against the street as utilities? I believe the building across the street from The Standard had that same condition. It could be that The Standard has the same thing.
I do recall it was on the other side of the street. The Standard is a... They were going to give us trees that were part of a streetscape plan that the city was going to do. So that was a failure. That just never happened.
But yeah, so the Flats, yes, they have the... Or I think they're still called The Flats. We call it the Flats. Across the street. Right. Across the street from The Standard. Yeah, they have the sidewalk, then it's the trees, then it's like a private sidewalk.
Is that- That's correct ... what you guys are trying to do? Which is different from what's in our packet. Yes, that's what we would like to do. Okay. Yes. And that's because of utilities, or is that just- It has to do with the grades and being able to provide that landscape buffer- Yeah ...
to be able to provide steps from the sidewalk against the building to the sidewalk outside. Hmm. And I believe there was also some utility benefit to it in terms of where the trees are going to go relative to utilities.
This is the flat. Okay. Step down onto- Yeah. All right. We're going to share our plans- Yeah ... just to make sure we're saying the same thing. Okay. Because it looks like, yeah, the rendered site plan that you gave us looks like you have plantings in that space where the steps are, and then there's sidewalk, and then the trees are- Right ...
where we typically want them, which is up against the street. Right. And that's how it's shown in this package. But the site submittal that is under- Okay ... review currently has adjusted that to do exactly what they've done at The Flats.
So what we're voting on tonight would be those trees are moving inward, is what you're telling me? That's correct. Okay. Is everybody following this? So not what was submitted. Correct. So they're moving toward the property line?
They're- Yes. Towards the building. Moving towards the building. And the package that- In the staff report part. In the staff report, there's a different plan than what- I think in the variance package that was submitted.
I think the concern that- Go ahead. Jump in. I was going to say, this may be a timing issue. Mm-hmm. Because we're moving, trying to get the development plans reviewed at the same time, because I didn't even realize.
Okay. So apologies that this is not showing. And I'm just being extra OCD about this. Yeah, I completely agree. Make sure when we make a vote tonight, we know what we're- Completely agree ... voting on.
I guess active depth is always an issue. But the ground story height and finished floor elevation, where are you guys going straight with that? Where we have the... I'll go back to the plans on that one.
Where we're not meeting the active height, it's where we have the amenities stacked. So where we've got the lobby, where we have this double-height space. Mm-hmm. This plan to the next plan, we don't have issues there.
As soon as we get into the amenities, because of the way the sidewalk is working- Mm-hmm ... we're actually depressed. Once we get past these steps- Ah ... the finished floor inside the building is lower- Mm-hmm ...
than the plaza. Mm-hmm. And so we've got another level above that. And so if we're measuring from street level, that next amenity level up comes in quicker, and we don't have- It's halfway in between.
So you still see it, it just doesn't come all the way to the window line to count. So you still see that second mezzanine level up there. Mm-hmm. So you still have the activity, just doesn't come all the way to that band- Right ...
that we were talking about. Okay. So from the pedestrian experience, we're still seeing double-height spaces all the way. Absolutely. It's active use. Okay. Active use. Yeah, it's just two floors instead of one tall floor.
Okay, and I understand the setback and the entrances. I think that I'll get why that's an issue. Okay. It extended here to accommodate the plaza. And the intent of the plaza is to serve as an extension of the memorial walk, not a plaza for our residents, per se.
It's because I actually felt the same way in terms of having this memory walk to the left, that I wanted to bring it to the front of the building to make sure it was at the forefront. So the intent is that you have your art there, you have your signage, and that it's celebrated front and center.
That's why that's there. Any other questions on zoning? Because I pick your little questions. So just to clarify the... I was trying to find in the staff report where the image was that somebody referenced.
The trees along the street edge go away? No, they move. They move. They shift. They shift towards the steps. The building? Shift towards- So it'll be sidewalk, street trees- Mm-hmm ... steps down, and then plaza.
Okay. So if you look at this right here, Mohammed, tell me if I'm wrong. The rectangles or squares down at the bottom, those go away, and there's already planters and the planting boxes there. Now they have to meet city requirements, right?
Right. But that's the idea. Trees shift up, and then you've got the sidewalk against the curb, and then you got the landscaping strip with the steps that connect between the two sidewalks, and then you got the plaza.
It's page 90- It's on page 93. Yeah. Thank you. 93. PDF 93. PDF 93. But from a variance perspective, if that's not approved, then this is the plan we have to build. Is that right? That's correct. There we go.
So you're looking at it both ways. If we don't get approval for the variance, this is what gets built. If we do get approval from the variance during the site plan process, the rectangles at the bottoms go away.
Go away. Is this buildable? With the landscape against the curb? Yeah. Are we going to run into- It's kind of a civil- ... gas line or something? It's kind of a civil question on whether or not... Yes, as shown, you'd run into utilities, but we'd have to look into utility reroutes.
It's because of the slopes. Mm-hmm. I can't fully answer that, unless you can. Yeah. And I think that... So I can't answer the civil portion of it. But because we do have the sidewalks internal on the plaza, and the sidewalk on the outside, because at some point, the closer we get to the bridge, the more that elevation change occurs.
If we have them right against each other, it makes that connection between the two a little bit more difficult. And so you would have to work your way to the southwest corner to get closer to being level.
And so separating them allows that landscape buffer to function as that zone that we can use to step up and down between the two sidewalks. So it improves the connection between the outer sidewalk and the plaza by having the landscape zone in there, to be able to grade it a little bit differently and give us enough room to be able to step between the two when we need more than a couple of steps.
By the time we get to the front door on the southwest corner, the sidewalks are fairly close to being level. It's the bridge side that... Now we've actually improved the condition with the plaza stepping up the way it is, but there's still grade differences to be worked out between the plaza and the sidewalk.
Because the sidewalk has to be maintained as an accessible connection all along the frontage. So we really have to... And the street elevation is not changing, so we don't have any control over what grades that's going to be.
And so the landscape buffer in between, I'm sorry I'm talking a lot, but that gives us that ability to step up and down. So there's still a step here I think at that point, it ends up being nothing Because why I asked is, to your point of accessibility, I think it's important to have these grade the same- Absolutely.
You're flat right there. Absolutely, man. That's the goal. So that folks can get into the plaza, basically, if they have accessible needs. That's correct. So that end by the front door is going to be level, and civil is working the grades for that to be leveled, and then beyond that, they'll start with a couple of steps- Sure ...
and then up to four or five at the most height difference. But because the street sidewalk maintains its grade, then you don't need to add in additional ADA requirements like you don't need a ramp at this step here?
That's correct. Okay. That's correct. Yeah. Because we have guardrails at the bridge. There's no connection to that sidewalk anyway. The elevation is different- Okay ... and so that's how we're working the accessible means by having that zone in the middle to warp it and ramp it where we need to be.
Okay. Thank you. Okay. Can I pick your questions? Sure. Sorry. Parking screens. So the north side on the elevation, I was expecting to see screens. It says textured brick. I think I read that correctly.
Is that correct? It's just wall? We've actually made that change between the presentation in May and this one. Part of that is there was some feedback, some comments about thinking through how are we screening the lights from the parking from bleeding outside, what happens to headlights, and based on the redesign over the last few months, we have lost our ability to do natural ventilation- Okay ...
anyways. And so we were not needing these openings to be able to get ventilation in the deck, so we figured if that's an issue and there's a concern there, and we know, we understand that it's going to be residential on the north side of us, we've decided to take out the openings.
And instead, we didn't want to have a flat brick wall, so we've used that same patterning to just create texture brick or just a different running bond. Okay. A different bond. Well, that makes that easy.
And I guess you've got a middle parking screen example that just looks like it's a wire grid. Is that what- That's right ... you're saying? And that would be on the east side. It's a mesh only on the east side.
That's correct. Okay. Isn't really facing anything. Okay. That's right. That side is facing the rail. You had some decorative brick shown on some of your renders, but it was unclear how it was... It looked interesting on the renders, but I had no idea what it was and how it was detailed.
There you go. This here? That. Yeah ... so this is really what we're doing is this one here it's shown as a Flemish bond right now, and what we're doing is really just with every other course, we're pushing it out half an inch.
So it creates that texture that- I see ... you're seeing in the screen. It's not a lot of depth, but it's enough for when the sun hits it, it creates that shadow effect. Mm. And it just elevates it a little bit more beyond just the typical flat running bonds.
Yes. Part of that is we don't have glazing on this side, and this is the memory walk, and we wanted to celebrate it. We're forced into having to put some of the utilities there because it's the only way we can get vehicular access to them.
Mm-hmm. And so this was a way to elevate the design along that west base of the building. So you also have some rustication or... There you go. Thanks. So that's on the- So this is looking south. On the right side there is the west.
Ah. So that basically the memory lane is on the right side of this image. Okay. You have a- And then it's also- You have a trellis in your plan, but I don't see it there Because we're standing in front of it.
And this is not meant to... There was a specific request at the last meeting to focus on enhancements to the elevations, so this image is- Yeah ... just meant to focus on the enhancements to that elevation, but you're also standing in front of it.
Yeah. The trellis. In all honesty, even the patterning on the floor, on the ground is not really matching up. I would reference this just for the purpose of some of the detailing on the facade. So for the vertical brick striping, I guess, on the upper floors- Over here.
Yep. Is that the same approach with the- Same approach ... Flemish bond- Little more- ... sort of are just- Same approach, a little more subtle. So in a couple of areas along the perimeter, this being one where the unit layouts are coming together- Yeah ...
we're going to have bathrooms along the edge, and so we don't have the ability to put windows. Right. And so we're coming in, and this would be part of the typical running bond that we're doing. We'll take a zone in there, and we'll start to inset at a half-inch inset portion of it just to create a little bit of texturing on the facade.
You've got some along West Main as well, I think- That's correct ... at least in one spot. Currently on West Main- Yeah ... it is one spot. So it's like these residential wings that project out. Just the design of the units at the end of that wing tend to put bathrooms against a center demising wall.
And so instead of it being a flat wall, we're just coming in. We wouldn't change the brick bond or anything. We would just come in and start to inset in and out just to create a little bit of shadow and some detail.
Got it. Okay. Is this a- It looked like you had just Flemish bond and the other fissure. What is creating the vertical there? What's creating the horizontal? I think this is just the pattern in this rendering- Oh ...
kind of ended up, yeah. I'm going to go back to the- It's just not-- Oh, I see. You got the corbel up top. Oh yeah, we have the corbel up top. But this graphic here shows a lot better what we're proposing, and that wraps the corner on the north end as well.
So it's the Flemish bond with the full bricks getting pushed out. Mm. And this right here, this is the silhouette or the profile of what the wall is doing. So you can see the in and out, in and out every course.
And then by the time we get to the top here, we're doing half-inch corbelling. So it's just a brick supporting itself. Mm-hmm. And then horizontally, we've got these projecting pilasters that come out 12 inches.
And this graphic here was to really assign a dimension to it, so it's not just in the rendering, but it's showing what we're proposing. What's the fencing on the roof? The screening? The fence. The glass.
Oh, the glass. There's a glass rail. Yeah, a glass rail. It's a glass rail. And how tall is that? It looks quite tall. 48 inches. Oh. Yeah. So, where we have the terraces up high? Mm-hmm. Is that right?
So the brick comes up a couple of feet, and then behind that, the glazing extends. So the height of the glazing is going to be 48 inches, but it's- Gotcha ... you're not going to see the full 48 inches because the masonry comes up some, and then you've got glazing on top of that.
Thanks. I think we do have a detail, although I would admit not super clear. So in this diagram here, I'll zoom in on it a little bit more. You can see this is at the terrace, so the brick comes up. And then we have the coping, so that comes up 24 inches, but the glass rail comes up four feet from finish.
So it- Makes sense ... kind of extends up 24 to 30 inches above the brick. And I know we had talked about-- It's not shown in this sketch here, but we had talked about with these brick masses, to kind of celebrate the top of it some, not necessarily a large crown or anything.
We started to think through that, and so you're seeing the soldier course and how the coping is going to lap over the masonry. This might be a great place also where we can get a half-inch depression just to give the top band of the masonry a little bit more profile.
We had talked about how with the corbelling and some of the brick courses that we're doing down at the base, it's giving it a lot of texture and detail. And so this would be a more subtle approach to it up at the very top, where instead of just having the running bond all the way up, we're just doing a soldier course band at the top and letting the coping run down on its own.
Any other questions from the VAR? Just following our procedures. I have another question. Sorry. Okay. No, that's fine. The soffit material, some of the renderings you're showing wood, and then I think your details, I'm only seeing fiber cement.
What's your intention there for the public overhangs at the ground story? For the public overhangs at the front- Yeah ... like where we have this- Mm ... main entry along West Main, it's going to be wood.
Okay. Or the wood look and texture. It is not going to be a wood product. We use metal that's got that wood texture. Mm. Just it's very durable. It lasts a long time. Beyond these main prominent entries where we have the building overhanging on the east and the west, that would be a cementitious product.
Thank you. So seeing this image actually brings me a question. Are you all having plantings on the top of the corbelling? If it was up to my design team internally, yes. If they're watching. They sprinkled them in there?
That is actually something that would be desired internally. Okay. Whether or not that depth can support it- Got you ... questionable. We'll see what grows. Yes. Right. Yeah. And in that detail where we've showed the planners, this is one of the areas where we have a little bit of a recess.
So we actually do have a zone there behind the parapet where there could be planters that sit there, and then the plants would spill over. I think the detail hasn't been worked out, but it's done in that location intentionally because we do have the depth to be able to do it.
It wouldn't be a potted type setup, no. Let's just say it was intentionally added by our leadership. Okay. It doesn't look like you can get to it, though, on another- That's the trick, is how do you water it and maintain it?
Yeah. You might have to do your-- Can you do irrigation there? Yeah, you would irrigation. Got you. And it's not- It's up to us to figure out. Yeah, and it's not very high from a maintenance standpoint.
I think you would get to it with a ladder- Mm ... when you need to get to it, but you would probably have irrigation. I mean, for what it's worth, you do show some green roofs on your precedent images for your- The other- Other buildings ...
other projects. Yeah. It's something we strive for. Just one more question, I guess. I was thinking back to your wall sections. I think they were some of the ones we were looking at- Yep ... originally.
I didn't see any... They looked very thin to me. I didn't see any continuous insulation on the outside. Mm-hmm. I'm just curious about the energy code, how that- Yeah ... is all working out. So we haven't gotten there yet.
We plan to run an energy model. If we go prescriptive, chances are we're going to have to provide the rigid insulation. I think for this climate, even with the energy model, we might have to, but a lot of times, in a lot of climates, when we run the energy model based on the performance of the windows and the R values of the walls and the roof, sometimes we're able to get out of needing to provide the continuous insulation.
We have to prove it- Mm ... through an energy model before we can commit to that. So right now, we haven't gone through with that exercise. It is an exercise that we plan to go through. If we need the energy model to comply with the energy code requirements, certainly it's going to be included in there.
And all of these profiles, the easy trim reveals that I've passed around, they come in different depths. I think there's a little brochure that comes with it. It kind of shows all the dimensions. They come in all dimensions.
So if you have to do rigid insulation, we just put different profiles, and it works with up to, I believe, 3 inches or 3 and a half inches. With your cement panels? With rigid insulation behind- Got it ...
the fiber cement- Fiber ... if we have to do it. So it's a fiber cement. That was my next question is if you have to use that, then it's a fiber cement- Yep ... fiber return. Yep. It's Z channels attached directly to the sheathing, that are as deep as the rigid insulation needs to be, and then the fiber cement gets installed directly into that Z channel.
Why not just use EFIS? Is that allowed? Why not just use so... Why not just- Is that a leading question? No. I was- I'm watching Jeff's head like smoking. I think just use- Yeah. Why not just use a material that returns easily and doesn't need a complicated clip system or...
I don't know. That's a little bit of a leading question, but it's- Yeah ... but it's also a question. It's just- Mm-hmm ... it's a question that follows this train of thought. Yeah. Really, the option that come to mind, if it's not a cementitious type board, it's going to be a stucco type system, which if we find out that we need rigid insulation behind the stucco, it would be somewhat similar to an EIFS system.
But, you can still do a hard-coat stucco on rigid insulation and I believe we can't do EIFS by... It's not allowed, but I could be wrong on that. It's just if you don't need insulation, or if you don't need 2 inches of insulation, then maybe that becomes an overkill.
I think from a- Design ... just a maintenance and durability standpoint, LV Collective would prefer a product like the cement board, or in other markets, stucco as an alternative. Now, for this type of construction, when you get into other kinds of construction, prefab panels, there are great EIFS systems that are very durable.
And again, they have come a long way compared to some of the old EIFS installs that have caused a lot of issues over the years. But for this type of construction, when it's not prefab- Okay ... 90% of it tends to be either fiber cement panel or stucco.
So I think if you all were to switch materials based on your energy model, that would have to come back to us. Yes. It wouldn't be, we wouldn't switch materials. We would just be putting insulation- Oh, okay ...
behind the fiber cement. Which we can't see. Yeah. So that's not our- So it's not our purview, right? Correct. Okay. Yeah. That would just- So I don't need to discuss insulation. There you go. Yeah, that would just be to comply with energy requirements- Okay ...
and it would thicken the assembly some. Instead of it being sheathing- But towards the interior. Yes. Yeah. Like thickening towards the interior, not the outside. Or it would grow. Even if we can't get out of it altogether, I can't imagine we'd need more than an inch, inch and a half max.
And if the stud holds firm where it is, if that means the fiber cement panel comes out, it may reduce the change of plane between the masonry and the fiber cement from four and a half inches to three and a half inches.
It wouldn't be anything that's noticeable. That's okay. It would give us more depth. It would go to the inside. Right. No change in dimensions. Yeah. So I think- Public hearing, too. Yeah. Does anybody have any other pressing questions on the BAR?
We're going to get to comments in a few. We're going to call a 10-minute break, bio break, after which we'll come back and have a- We'll start with comments from the public. We've just ended our questions phase, just so everybody knows.
We'll start with comments from the public. I'd like to invite folks who are here from the public. We've got some sign-up sheets, so during the break, if you could come up and jot your name down if you'd like to speak.
You'll have three minutes to speak, and then we'll go to comments from the board after that. Also, if you're online watching and you want to comment, maybe go ahead and raise your hand so that staff can see that you would like to comment, and then they can add your name to the sign-up sheet.
Okay. Thanks, everybody. We'll take a bio break, and we'll reconvene at 8:20. I'll figure that out. It's okay. All right. Sorry, we're a few minutes past, but I think everybody needed a break. All right.
We ready? All right. Great. Thanks, everybody. I think that was a good question period, and we'll see where our comments go. We are going to please invite members of the public to comment on this project.
Thank you. Anyone online with their hand raised? If anyone online would like to comment, please raise your hand now. I see no hands raised. Okay. Then I'll call Brandon Collins. Please come on down. Good evening, BAR.
My name's Brandon Collins. I live in Charlottesville. I've lived here my whole life. As you may recall, I have the very deep honor and privilege of working with our West Haven resident planners. They're coming up on four years of planning of their newly redeveloped community.
And there's a lot to say based on the discussion. I'm going to try to stick to design, but I think overall, our ask is to defer this. I know it's not necessarily your concern that an agreement hasn't fully been fleshed out between the community and LV, but that agreement is going to determine the parameters for which resident planners can chime in on the design, right?
And it's not just the so-called memory walk, which is really a connection to West Main Street. We want to incorporate memory into that, and certainly some of that will have an impact visually on the broader community.
But there are other aspects about the building, particularly the facades on all four sides, that our residents are going to want to have some say in what that looks like. Particularly the north side, the colors, the materials, certainly the plantings.
We had a recent discussion with residents about plantings back there. We've had past conversations about historic plantings. And so those are all things that need to get worked out, and I don't think the BAR really should move forward with an approval right this second without having the answers to some of those questions.
Particularly, the west side facade, when we're talking about potentially having banners hanging down. That facade's going to interact with our connection to West Main Street and the memory walk. The color, the feel of that, how can we create an openness there?
How do we deal with the turning into the parking there, that black hole that's basically there for parking? Those are all things that are visible from the public, from West Main. The entrance of Cox's Row to Main Street, what that looks like.
What if residents decide we want a whole lot of red brick to commemorate West Haven? Don't necessarily want it in our West Haven redevelopment, but we might want to have that as some kind of incorporated memory, right?
And that's something that I think is within the BAR's purview to consider. There's a lot more reason to defer. At the bottom line, residents still... The whole thing from the get-go is an eyesore, which is why we need an agreement and some parameters, and we're this close.
So our residents have tried to discuss certain aspects, and just can't until they know what they're working with once there's an agreement with LV. I think we're close, but I do think the design changes that will happen as a result will impact this project a lot, and you're not ready to see those.
That's kind of our problem Not yours. Your problem is what this thing is going to look like, and right now you're not really going to know what it looks like. So that's all I have. Great. Thank you, Mr.
Collins. Appreciate that. All right, and then Ms. Dreyfus. Thank you. Emily Dreyfus, I'm happily late. And I want to roll back my communication about conversations with the community, because I talked with Britney during the break, and she tried hard, apparently, to get to a resident planners meeting, and not just one.
And she was put off to some future point, which we will look forward to having happen. And I also encouraged her to talk with residents by being in the neighborhood and talking with Barr, and trying to get more dialogue going, because the connecting walkway is really critically important.
I think if you could please delay approving this for both the reasons of the connecting walkway and the landscaping, it will really help to keep you all involved and have the residents' quality of life have this body as a checkpoint.
And if you can't do that, if you don't feel like that's possible for you, then I think omitting the landscaping and omitting the walkway to come back at a future point. I really hope that you don't completely drop your role with the walkway.
The solar study is the other thing that really concerns me, and I know some of you expressed concerns about that and getting more pictures, because the current residents, assuming that West Haven redevelopment, like most LIHTEC processes, takes longer than a private development.
There will be an impact on current residents for probably a year or 18 months. So knowing more about what shadows are going to be cast for them as well as for future residents would be really helpful.
Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Dreyfus. Anyone else? Okay, you're good? All right. All right, then we will go to comments from the BAR. Jerry, you want to go for it? Start us off, buddy. I'll say one thing.
I would hope that they could provide perspective from West Haven to give to staff to help with the plantings and other aspects. And so that's something I would like to see from LV just going to staff.
I don't think it needs to come back to us, but I think it would be a useful thing. Thank you. Anybody else want to dive in? I'm always happy to talk. Got it. So I hear the public in wanting us to defer, but I also feel like if we go ahead and approve or deny or just vote on it tonight with what we've got before us, it does allow the West Haven residents, they don't have to rush and try and get something figured out in the next week to then come back to us.
Right. So instead, something basic could be voted on, and that if it's approved, that would mean that the applicant could work with residents and take their time, come up with a good plan, and then it all comes back to us, and the BAR gets to look at it again.
I would hope that we wouldn't put too heavy a hand on whatever the residents come up with, but still, it would give us a chance to be involved again. So I think we spent an hour and some odd amount of time asking questions.
I'm feeling more comfortable with what we've got in front of us as being a complete application. So I would be in favor of having a vote tonight. Some conditions I would put on there, I think as far as the hopefully soon to be memory walk, that area, I think we approved the sidewalk and the driveway and the pedestrian lighting that shows up on the plan.
But the bollards and the catenary lights, all that, I think just we assume it's not there, and when it's added later, it comes back to us. The trellis, I think, because we don't have any information on it, we assume it's not there, and when it's finally designed, it comes back to us, and we see it.
I do think I want to push for some shade trees, some big trees in the back. I don't know what site plan implications you guys have, but I think my recommendation would be... Well, I emailed all of you the transition screens.
I don't know if you had a chance to see that. We've got a print. I can circulate this printed copy. There's a note passed to me that- Yeah ... I was waiting until our comments period. But yes, basically, in the development code, chapter 34, there are transition screens.
In this particular case, it would not be required by code. However, we can use this as sort of a this is what our intent might be. And it was shown on the screen earlier this evening that potentially transition screen high-2 is sort of the, I guess, the tallest and- Yeah ...
deepest- Yeah ... of a transition planting plan, which provides for tall trees and larger shrubs. A 20-foot depth minimum, et cetera. I would be okay with a moderate too. The moderate too. Because what that gives you is two large trees per 50 feet.
So one large tree every 25 feet. Okay. An evergreen tree every 25 feet, and then five shrubs, which I think spaced out, kind of matches a little bit what their site plan was showing. Okay. But that's my thought.
If others have other thoughts. I want to pass these up and down just so that if folks haven't had a chance to pull up their email yet, they can see them. Oh. I do think this is a good mechanism for us to give guidance on that landscape area, and also address some of the concerns we've heard from the community tonight about screening.
If people- Carl- Carl, can I interrupt? Mm-hmm. Just to, I want to make a clarification- Mm-hmm ... that so everyone, again, you all, folks here, and folks listening understand. So when I was referring to the landscaping plan and omitting that if necessary, again, I'm not talking about a community-designed memory walk.
I'm talking about the trees at that back- Oh, I know ... or the tree selection or shrub selections. I know, I'm sorry. Not allowed to say shrubs. Plant selections. I'm not suggesting- Shrub ... that a...
It's up to LV Collective if they want to engage and talk about what kind of plants to put at the back. But, I'm just simply saying that if we can't decide the spacing of the trees or what type of trees or which screening variation we'll use- Well, I think you have a condition on there- That's right ...
they certainly need to be- Right ... native species and selected from the city's- Right ... approved tree list. So just make sure really clear, when I say landscaping plan, I'm not talking about- You're not talking hardscape.
Yeah. Right. And I don't want to... There's some parts of it I think I'd like to get baked into the approval- Okay ... just in case. Got you. If it gets built, we need to have something there. Got you.
Yep. I'll- And I don't want to have- I just want to make sure that happens. Right. Thank you ... the Doyle Hotel drives me nuts every time I walk by there. But wouldn't we be able to just require them to come back with a landscaping plan?
To be required as part of the condition here- We- ... as opposed to specifying any screening or anything like that? Could. My preference is not to, but we can do that if others want to. My preference would be for it to come back fully.
I think landscape is much more than just plants. I think there's visual connection, there's spatial character, there's circulation. I think there's just defining a number of plants within a certain area just feels very limiting.
Mm-hmm. I also don't think we got enough information about the memory walk, about the bollards, about the easement that goes around to the cell tower. I know it sounds extreme because we've been working on this, and I think there's a lot of support for this application.
I would propose that we approve everything except for the memory walk, a landscape plan, a hardscape plan. Even details in the plaza you were basically calling out verbally that were different than what was submitted.
I'm not criticizing, I'm just saying... But it all is connected in some way. The memory walk presentation, for lack of a better word, apron at the street front at West Main, connects the materials will continue and be the same as used in the memory walk itself.
And maybe the pedestrian walk will be contrasting, and then the easement will also need to be connected, and landscaping the back and probably even around, I guess the east side. I just see it as one continuum of things where I don't know how we can approve one of those elements tonight, just kind of bifurcating it.
So I would advocate- A separate CO ... yeah. And just it would be a separate CO later, and certainly maybe at the... I think that would give the applicant options. If the planning of the memory walk didn't go forward quickly and it needs to take more time for both parties, you could come back and give us some landscape and hardscape, and that could be a separate CO.
But I think those are the only... It's just really hard for us to approve something and say, "Well, we're just kind of approving a blank slate," or, "We're approving the bare minimum," or what the zoning code currently may require.
That's not the best job that we can do. And we've got some real expertise on this board that I think could, with more discussion and more time, could really refine those elements. So I interrupt again.
So, the development plan does include a landscape plan, so I can't sign off on the development plan if there's not a COA for the landscape plan. I'm just saying if it was absolute impasse, that's a means to an end.
But we don't choose the development plan. We do a certificate of appropriateness. Right. And I can't put my signature on the development plan until there's an approved COA. So- There are lots of conditions on that development plan right now, so like we said, Craig was- Right, and all those have to be met.
I'm just saying that- Yeah ... if to suspend a- I thought we were in a comments from the BOA. I'm trying to help with your discussion, but okay. We can agree for what it's worth, Jeff, if I can say that.
I agree with everything that's being said. Okay. And we are amenable to that. I'd like to know why, from Jeff, if he personally objects to this, why we couldn't have a separate CO for the elements that I've named?
Well, I did not- We've done it before, right? He suggested it to begin with. I'm not objecting to anything- Okay ... at all I'm simply saying that- It's only because I suggested- ... for a development plan review, and I know this is...
So just pointing out the fact here that, if you approve the COA for the building, that's fine. They know that they can move forward with that. That doesn't allow me to sign off on the development plan, which is a piece of this.
So I just want to be clear about that. I'm not trying to sway. I just want to be clear about that. Jeff, can you... So I understand the development plan doesn't have to be finalized until they go for a building permit, correct?
A site plan has to be finalized, but a development plan, the way the ordinance is written, it's to create a zoning compatibility document. It's essentially a document that says, "This thing meets the code of development." But I guess my question is, if we take all the landscaping out of this, all the site planning, all the hardscapes, everything, out of this application, and it becomes a separate COA, are we slowing them down in a way that...
Are we damaging the process, or is it still going to be something that- You're not damaging my process. It's just simply that I could not sign off on the development plan. My signature is necessary to say that this development plan is consistent with the COA.
But sequentially, it's not going to disrupt the timing of the development of their project. Maybe the applicant would like to- I'll stand up here Yeah. We are switching from the development plan to the site plan anyway.
So there is no development plan. Okay. We will be going for the site plan, and we do not need that until building permit, so it allows us enough time. Okay. I think this is a great in-between solution to allow for that community development- Okay ...
and to hold LV accountable to actually get it on the plans before building permit. Okay. All right. Thank you. Yeah. That was my question. Okay. That was the biggie. That was the biggie. So thank you.
Yeah. Sounds good. So with that in mind, it sounds like if we wanted to move ahead with some sort of motion or vote, then that we would essentially just be excluding the site plan. Yeah. Okay. All right.
Which would include the memory walk at that point, right? The memory walk, it doesn't exist. Or do we never look at the memory walk? Not tonight we didn't. We will look at it when they come back with the- No.
Well- ... they come back with the site plan. Well, again, I'll refer to the staff report ... if they choose to. If they choose to- Yeah ... include the memory walk. We will have to approve a site plan.
You have to approve something. Right. Whatever that includes. I mean, I think that's a very doable- Yeah ... compromise. And it avoids the collision of where, again, you just say we're approving the height, but we're not approving the design.
These are separate things, and there's a reasonable approach here. Mm-hmm. So just go ahead, keep going. Can I make a comment? But before you make a motion, let me offer some things. No, there's some more to talk about before we're ready to make a motion.
Right. Good. I'm sorry, Kate. But we had lots of... Go ahead. Do you? No, you go. I was going to say, we had lots of questions that we asked- Yeah ... but we didn't necessarily circle back to saying what we felt about those things.
So for example, the brick, in terms of our palette. I know some of y'all were looking at those. Personally, I kind of like the yellowish tone brick. Just me. But I think I want to hear what other people have to say.
If y'all disagree, disagree. But I don't know. I have no issues with the palette in general. Yeah. Okay. And I think I'm okay with there being some flexibility as long as it's within that range that they presented to us.
Okay. Maybe that's a better way of... Yeah. I didn't care for the butter and yellow, so we would- That's fine ... cancel each other out. That's right. I just don't know where... It reminds me... Anyway.
I don't know where else we see that color in the city of Charlottesville. It reminds me of an old federal institutional building. Sorry. It's all right. It looks DC to me. I guess I'm not hearing objections to the palette per se.
Correct. I think stylistically, I like where y'all headed with the building. I really liked the articulation of some of the brickwork, especially the vertical in the field, where like you had mentioned where you've got restrooms or bathrooms.
I think that's really helpful to kind of help give the facade some texture. To me, there's some hints of art deco detailing going on, which I would encourage. In some of the storefront openings, you kind of had little almost curved edging at those openings.
I thought that was really handsome. So I just appreciate y'all kind of adding in, sprinkling in some of those levels of details, like we had talked about last time with the Corbel brick. You picked up on my ask a little bit for the cornice up higher by switching to the soldier course.
I agree. I think if you could step it out a little bit just to give some shadow line, that'd be great. So that's just me on brick real quick. Any other thoughts on brick or the hardy plank fiber cement board?
Yeah. Now's your time. Now's your chance. I don't know what to... So I appreciate the fact that the brick is... Where people are going to see the building up close, it's brick. So usually I hate fiber cement, and the hardy plank stuff just really, it's Even when it's pre-finished, we have other buildings around town where it's not just that it gets kind of wonky over time, which I think your reveal system will help with.
I don't know if it collects dirt and the dirt then mildews, or if it's just the material itself mildews, but I think it's the Lark. Yeah, the Lark that's kind of catty-corner to all this stuff on 10th Street.
That siding has got mildew all over it, and it's less than 10 years old. So, but I don't know. I think, yeah, Jeff will explode if I start asking for EFIS or stucco or anything like that. So, yeah, I think I'm going to back down on that, just because, again, I do appreciate the fact that you're wrapping most of the building with the brick, at least for the lower levels.
So I, yeah. Yeah. I'm going to let it go. There's two elements to that that I think you've got working in your favor. If you use the smooth, that holds up a lot better- Yeah ... as far as picking up, because I've seen that, too, picking up dust and mildew.
And then I think the channel system that you're using is a good one. So, that's where usually you see these things looking kind of cheesy, is when the extrusions aren't big enough. I think it also goes back just to your point in the previous project about, there are different qualities of all these products, and the Hardie is kind of a residential product.
There are better cement panels that you can choose from. I certainly would prefer that. I would love it. First of all, I just want to applaud you for being open to the process. You've listened. You've really come back and tried to respond to feedback.
I was sorry to hear that there wasn't more communication between you and the community, because when we left the last time, I felt like both sides were here, and we kind of heard each other. And so I felt like it was the start of that, and I was looking forward to hearing what would come of that.
And so I was a little disappointed when I heard that nothing had come of it. That being said, when we took our break, there was a re-engagement of communication, which was fantastic. And it sounds like there's a path forward to that.
And so in a way that led to this, a willingness and what seems right from all of us to separate the landscape to give that more of a chance to develop so we don't have to make decisions about the landscape, or recommend a really standard and not sensitive solution.
Like, "Well, just make sure you screen it," sort of thing. That's not what we want to do here. We want this to be as rich as it can be, and that's only going to come from communicating to one another.
Anyway, all that being said, that's not really our purview in a way here. We're just looking at the building now. And so just getting back to the cement panel thing, I agree with Karl. I don't like it, especially on what should be a Class A building.
This is our main street, and it's a piece of civic architecture. Everybody's going to see it all the time, and it's a big building. So, for me, the vinyl window is an issue, too. Mm-hmm. I grudgingly approved the previous one.
But that was a two-story, little, 1950s, they needed new windows, so what are you going to do? But in this case, I wish there was a sense of appreciation of quality that would be instilled in these kinds of projects, these kind of up and very public-facing projects.
That being said, again, I go back to the priority for me is the fact that you did listen and that you did provide a good amount of good material, true brick. And you've come up with some interesting detailing that I think adds to the richness of this experience.
So, again, I appreciate that. And I think everybody on the board does here, because this is a process that we want to work, and we want it to work for the betterment of the community. I would say that, per the comments of a condition, if we do vote on it, a condition that I would like to apply would be the sun studies to make sure that those are included in the follow-up report.
I think that's an important issue that we should delve into a little bit more, and there was some more information that probably could've been looked at in that regard. Mm-hmm. Commissioner Wade? I agree that deferring the landscape is the right move.
I personally don't feel comfortable with the level of detail for any of the landscape, in particular the front of the building on Main Street. I think when you come back with those details, it would be really helpful to see detailed sections through the stairways, the kind of seats, the planting there.
Because I feel like the amount of talking that happened and not just reviewing drawings about that was a kind of a tip-off for me that that was just not enough information. Mm-hmm. Same with the elements that you're proposing in the back, the trellis, the Specific trees, or at least a detailed description of the kind of massing of trees that you're planning to plant there.
The sun studies you've provided, a lot of the community members have spoken about that already, but it's hard to read those, especially because of the slope behind the building. So you're just showing that in plan, but I think what would really be helpful is to show facade studies of the massing of the proposed West Haven buildings.
I'm not sure how solidified that is yet, but assuming there's a number of stories that they plan to have there, it'd be nice to see how the shadows from the LV building will pass across those facades.
I just have a- Sure ... really important comment on- Still no to that ... the sun study specifically. If we do get to a vote and we are separating the site plan from it, how will the- Right ... sun study- So I was going to say that in as much as it'll help them with whatever planning they're doing- Okay ...
I think that would be part of the process of engagement- Part of the 33% yes Okay ... moving forward. Fair enough. It also potentially could impact plantings selection- Planting, exactly ... for the site plan.
If it's going to be a formal condition, I would just want to make that clear, because- Yeah ... that could- For sure ... mean a lot of things. I'm not suggesting that you change the massing of the building, but like we said- Yes ...
landscaping and just planning future- Completely. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. The note, as I wrote it earlier, was a shade study to be provided, and you will decide whether or not, but showing 9:00 AM, noon, 3:00 PM, and 6:00 PM, and to assist with plant selection on site and provide information for the West Haven landscaping plan.
Yes. The West Haven neighborhood plan. So let's say- I think we can leave off- Yes ... March or September, one or the other. Right. Yeah. Right. So it's providing it to staff. 6:00 PM or December at the very worst.
It's not presented for approval- Sure ... it's provided for information. Right. The sun's down. For an hour and a half. Okay. I also guess you've already done the phase one archaeological study. Has that been provided to staff?
Or- I'm not sure. It may have before my time- Okay ... but I can do to provide it- Okay ... as a part of the site plan. Yeah. Great. In general, I'd say, I think I'm in support of the architecture of the building.
I think it's... I agree with my colleagues about the comments about the materials. And vinyl windows, fiber cement, those things. This is a really important building. It's right on the corner of a major thoroughfare, Main Street.
And we see so many... We see all the sides of the building. So I think it's just a really important moment in our city, and it should respond to that position appropriately with materials. I think those are my only comments.
Oh, the last thing I wanted to say is, the sections that you've provided, I think the one with the red line of the section cut showing the hill, is really, really helpful, but I'd like to see more detailed sections through the pedestrian walkway on the west side of the building.
And also just that where the property line is, where the roadway lands in that sloped section back there. It's just really hard to really understand that right now. So, thanks. You want to go, Jen? Sure.
Just pull your mic down. So I'm really excited that we've all come to this conclusion about the site plan, and I'm really, really appreciative that you are on board with that. I appreciate your intent, but we cannot vote on the intent.
So I'm just really pleased that it's come down to this. So I was just noting this really robust conversation about architecture and windows and brick, and I was just sad sitting over here wishing I could talk about the planting, or talk about the sidewalk, or talk about something.
I'm just not having enough to do. So I'm excited that you'll be looking and be able to provide more detail on that. I think I just want to emphasize that more study and collaboration occur between the two spaces.
I think there's a wedge of planting, and I think that's an opportunity to look at accessibility. I know there's a switchback walk at West Haven. It'd be really cool if that walk could continue to create up into the space so that there is...
I'm just worried that there's going to be this real effort on West Haven's part to make an accessibility, and then it's going to come into the site and not be. So I just want to see some effort to collaborate, and I think it's great that Water Street's on both, and that you can do that.
So I really encourage that collaboration at that interface between those spaces, that transition space. I think in spirit of collaboration, I think that there should be some connectivity between things like lighting, furnishings, planting, paving for both spaces so that it feels like it's more connected.
And again, with Water Street doing both, I think you have a great opportunity and efficiency to be able to do that. One thing that didn't come up is, I think there's a bus stop right there on West Main Street in front of the building.
So I think it would be great when you are looking at the landscape in front to think about how people... I know that's city right of way, but just to think about- Accommodating for people waiting. I think people will be coming up, and so just the considerations for that.
I'm excited that the phase one work will be done. I'm really curious, as a person who does cultural landscape preservation, to see if there's any findings in the phase one sections and perspectives. I think I would like to see when you come back, and Kate brought it up too, a section through that west side at a more detailed scale.
I can't really see what the conditions will be between the sidewalk, and the street, and the wall. So I'd like to see more sections. And maybe even studying them in section. I'm concerned about the grass pavers on that west side.
That is going to be mostly in shade, and grass pavers just don't often work. And it being in shade, it'll make it even less likely. So I just want to encourage you to revisit that. The planting is suggested plant palette, so I'm not going to really comment on the plant palette, because it's not really the plant palette, I think.
Again, Water Street is killer at planting, as Dave knows very well. So I think they're going to be a great asset to you when it comes to planting. I just want to go on record. I hope there's a significant budget for the landscape.
I worry sometimes when I see site plans like this in my own work that it means that all the money's going to the building and none of it's going to the landscape. So I just want to say I really hope that there is being set aside a good budget for the landscape for the memory walk.
Larger trees on the back, definitely more screening. Viewshed studies, I think, are important. The model views were done from really far back. I would like to see a view of the back of the building, just to see.
I think that you could combine a viewshed study and a solar study together, to look at how the shade conditions will be. And again, I'm not commenting on the building itself. I just think those shade studies are important, and then those views.
I think the intention is to have a clear view to West Main, and I just want to see what that looks like. No, I didn't think so, yeah. And then, this section on West Main is more open. Yeah, that's right.
It's got more open space than other sections of West Main. And I know the intention- I don't know if I'm going to say anything ... is to build up more building, more residents there. But I just want to emphasize the importance of open space, and that memory walk, that opening can be really beautiful and celebrated, and really invite, I think, not just to bringing West Haven people out to the street, but encouraging the public to go back into that space.
And to really be a place where the community can engage, and so I just want to emphasize that open space is important. That's it. Good summary. Thank you. One other, just thinking about the site plan, I forgot to ask this question, but at that, I guess, northwest corner, you'd mentioned the need for vehicular access to the cell tower, but also potentially emergency vehicles and whatnot.
Just making sure you've got the turning radius for a fire truck or something like that. Yes, we do. Just double, because that may impact the site plan a little bit. There's also a couple suggested conditions from staff that we could work those into a motion eventually.
But basically, talking about ground-level mechanical equipment, making sure that those are screened per the design guidelines. That would be deferred until the next- That's part of the site plan. So yeah.
So I don't think we'll put those in this, but just as a reminder, making sure those things are screened properly. Also anything, meters, panel boxes, cable connections, can any of that sort of stuff get put in the garage?
As much as possible, I guess, we'd like to see those things going into the garage. And if not, then similarly, needs to be screened per the design guidelines. There's kind of a reminder that any signage would have to go through the approval process for a sign permit, which is not through us, but still working through Neighborhood Development Services.
There's a note about the glass at street level. Storefronts, doors, windows, transoms must be clear with a VLT of not less than 70%. I guess that would apply, so we'd probably work that into our motion.
Seating tables, planters, that's part of the site plan. So I just wanted to hit those real quick before we forgot them. Also the- Not to say that I'm- In the- ... squashing any more further comments In the second bullet on page three, the first paragraph had to do, they've addressed that with the solid brick wall outside the garage on the West Haven side.
But there's also a suggestion that anything be dimmable if it is shining towards that area down onto West Haven. We're happy to do that. It was more so the second part of the statement that was a little troubling.
I would just maybe ask that we could work through any resolution with staff if there are any concerns expressed, but also with the brick. We don't know how that works. The dimmable is very easy. It's- Yeah ...
adding in how to manage. I only meant to talk about any exterior lights on that back portion. Yeah. But the complaints about public complaints, that's outside of our purview anyway, so yeah. Okay. That was my Yeah, we were confused by that too.
But yeah, I guess site lighting, does that include exterior building lights? So, I would suggest that all of the conditions that I've suggested, they become associated with this project, so mention them now.
Okay. And to be clear on the lighting, it's a unique set of conditions that we've applied in Entrance Corridor and on BAR to large-scale projects, and particularly large-scale projects with... Sorry, I was trying to draft some of these conditions- No ...
so that you had them. But, let's walk through what I noted here. So yeah, the ground level mechanical equipment, utility meter box, et cetera, screening, that's pretty boilerplate stuff. Mm-hmm. But it- Right ...
just puts it in there on record. Meters, panel boxes- Yeah. Put the lighting in ... no problem with the location. Puts it on record. Right. No problem with that. The lighting, so I don't mind if you all want to reword this or fix my grammar, but it is directly from what we used for The Verve.
We used it for 2005 JB- I think this might be my next unit ... A used it. Okay, the second portion. Yeah. Starting with additionally. Mm-hmm. I'm sorry. What's that? Starting with the word additionally.
But deleting the part about public complaints, because that's- Well, and that's in there because that one's been vetted quite a bit, because actually the bigger concern is that where we do have... I'm trying to address here both, now our code now requires lighting with the color temperature that we've had no issues with glare.
So really, it solves some of that. Okay. But as much as anything, it's the applicant and developer acknowledging that if you build your garage and all of a sudden light is blasting out of it, and people are having an issue with it, they're acknowledging that they'll work with us.
Mm-hmm. So maybe it's a goodwill statement. And then it comes down to if... Now, the fact that those garage openings on the east are going to be closed up, but if you've got the light... One thing, you have vehicle lights coming in and out- It's everything but the east.
What's that? I think they're closed up everywhere but the east. Okay. But if somebody says, "Gosh, I can't," there's the interior lighting on those, because remember, our code doesn't regulate interior lighting.
Right. So, if they go in and put 7,000 K LEDs- Gold East District. That's okay. Yeah. And Tim Moore calls me and says from his house up on Park Street- Sure. I guess- ... he can see it. Part of my question was more related to the light fixtures themselves.
I know that site lighting will be part of the site plan. Are exterior building-mounted lights part of the site plan typically, or no? They are if they're part- Because we didn't really see any cut sheets on lighting ...
like the light packs that... There are required light packs, but most of what we've seen are can lights, or maybe some, but unless- Well, we didn't see any cut sheets on light fixtures ... but nothing shown here.
Well, they had some in the renderings. They were pretty decorative. Yeah, so if it's a decorative light, so there's the light fixture, and then there's the lamping. So, this condition here is addressing the lamping.
Yeah. I'm good with that. The light fixtures, I don't know. Something that we typically review. Yeah. What they look like. We don't really go to the guidelines. We don't really have a... Can that be a staff-level review item?
Well, I just look at the lamping. And now, if they come in and they've got ornate chandeliers dangling from these openings, that's something I'm going to have a question about that. Right. But, it just really has not been an issue.
And it's something, yeah, we will see. It'll be on the building permit, or like I said, they come out and it's something that's really obnoxious, then- There's something in the ordinance about night sky, isn't there?
Well, that's the lamping. Okay. And so, yeah, so that's covered. Well, it's not just lamping. That's cut off. There needs to be cut off on- Full cut off, right ... site lighting. Full cut off. Right. And that's required.
Right. So. So whatever street lights or wall packs they have to put on there. But if they, like I said, do something ornamental on those canopies in the front and it's really egregious, yeah, I might say, "I got to go ask the BAR about this." Are we requiring...
It seems like site lighting and furnishings are part of- So my- Site package ... suggestion is that- Site package ... yeah, that we omit the planting palette, the paving palette, the site furniture. Can't read my own writing.
Is the suggestion just that we are- That's because it's a different note ... omitting everything outside the building footprint? Right. No, I want to be specific. And so I'm referring to the sample plant palette, the paving palette, external lighting, and site furnishings, as indicated on pitch sheets eight, nine, 10, 11, and 12 this- I guess I would say we should include something about the stairs.
It's not just the palette of the paving, meaning color selection, but the- The parts and details ... design of the stairs and- Again, I go to the how far down, how much detail do you all want to get into in referring to the guidelines?
I'm okay with everything outside the building footprint. Yeah. Well, I- I'm trying to at least... If I keep it in a very small box, then someone's not going to yell at me for excluding a bunch of stuff.
So- Or include building lighting at the first level to the site package. It's actually our action- That would- ... and our choice. Yeah. I would actually- Let me just say that, Jeff shouldn't be blamed for something that we did that wasn't in the guardrails.
Right. God, and Kate shouldn't either. So if we make an error tonight, it's squarely on us. Sure. That recessed wall lighting, pedestrian pole lights, that's the only site lighting I see. And- Right. I don't page through it Per the applicant's just suggestion right now, I wouldn't mind the pedestrian level- Yeah ...
building and lighting to be included. I can think of some examples pretty close to this project. Yeah. Well, they haven't really shown- Shown any I would say on the exterior ... yeah, on the exterior.
Exterior. Of course. That's right. Yeah. I was going to say, I don't see any, so I don't know what I'm even arguing. Yeah. I meant- Yeah. I guess my point is, we typically do see a cut sheet of a proposed exterior light fixture.
Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. We didn't see one tonight. I think it'd be great to see that, and if it's easy to include it in the site plan package, great. Right. Let's just weave it into that. It will be in. It will be...
Yes. Yeah. You're using site plan in a different way than I'm using it, but yes. I have one further thing. Sure. First of all, I'd like to commend staff. That was a lot of work- Mm-hmm ... that you guys had to do.
Yes. I'd like to commend LV, because I think you guys did listen and brought back really reasonable stuff for us to deal with, and that you're being very flexible with our suggestions here. And I go back to Sherry's idea of separating out those items, that we approve basically the building- Mm ...
and leave out these other things. And the ideas that Jeff has articulated, I think need to be put in our COA that we do. And I also want to commend the members of the BAR for their thoughtful comments and helping to move this forward in a positive way.
I also want to compliment and thank the public, and especially the West Haven community, for coming out at both of our pre-application conferences and tonight. So I know it's been a tough one, a little bit, but I think that we're starting to get to a good place.
I want to appreciate LV Collective again, from between the first meeting and second, in reducing the height of the building from 11 stories to nine on the front, and down to six on the rear. I think that was definitely helpful.
I know that there may be some members of the public wish it was lower, but I think that's a compromise, right? Everyone has to give a little and take a little. So, I appreciate you all willing to do that.
Any other comments? I think we're ready to try and craft some sort of motion. Craft away. Thanks. Mr. Chair. I'll give it a shot. I don't know if, Jeff, you want to hand me your crib notes- Yeah ... and I can poach from them a little bit.
I think, Sherry, your point's well-taken as well, but- I'll do this so I can read along with you ... I'll use this as just a guideline, but... Uh-oh. Do you just want to hand me those? Yeah. All right.
If you say, what's the- What's the handwriting? Yeah. He's going to hand it right back to you. So you can start at the bottom if you want. And that's just simply a note is that you can reference the conditions on the staff's recommended conditions as on pages four and five of the staff report.
I think we can just read them. You can certainly read them if you wish, or... Yeah, the walk-ups, I guess they weren't excluded. That's okay, because that is- I would say you can omit the- If it's part of it, it's all good ...
yeah, the last one about the seatings and tables. That's fine. Yeah. Unless you want to include. Yeah. All right. And Jeff, do you got my note in there? What note's that? Condition note I passed you. Oh.
You got my note, too? Do you want to give it to James, or? Oh, yes. Yeah. Yes. And that's... Yeah, I addressed that. Okay. Having considered standards set forth within city code, including the city's ADC district design guidelines, I move to find that the proposed development at 835, 843, and 847 West Main Street satisfies the BAR's criteria, and is compatible with this property and other properties in this ADC district, and that the BAR approves the application with the following conditions.
Ground level mechanical equipment, utility meter boxes, panels, transformers, et cetera, will be appropriately screened per the design guidelines, chapter two, section eight. Screening will be indicated on the final site plan and approved by BAR staff.
Meters and panel boxes for utility, communications, and cable connections will be located preferably within the garage. If not, then in non-prominent locations on the side elevations only, and appropriately screened.
Screening will be indicated on the final site plan and approved by BAR staff. The owner will address any reasonable public complaints about brightness or glare from exterior lights or non-vehicular lights visible from the garage by either dimming the lamp, replacing the lamp's fixtures, and/or modifying the screening at wall openings.
New signage. Glass at the street level storefronts, doors, windows, and transoms must be clear with a VLT of not less than 70%. You don't need to read further. We are going to omit from the COA, the sample palette, paving palette, external lighting, and site furnishings, including first floor level building lighting on the exterior.
The aforementioned site details indicated on sheets eight, nine, 10, 11, and 12 of the submittal. These site elements will be reviewed at a later date as a separate COA request. Prior to BAR staff approval of the final site plan, applicant will complete a phase one archaeological investigation of the project site and provide that report for the BAR archive.
They will provide to BAR staff a shade/shadow study examining the hours of 9:00 AM, noon, 3:00 PM- Oh, you're right, Chad. Thank you ... 6:00 PM. 3:00 AM and 6:00 AM might not have any sun. No. The intent is to advise plant selection for the site and to provide information to the West Haven citizen planners to assist- With plantings within the- ...
plantings within the West Haven community. And that those hours be added to the dates that were already part of the solar plan. And I think that's it. I'm going to second that so I can make some comments.
Okay, I hear a second. Let's have discussion. Thank you. So, the comments about the garage lighting, I thought we were going to keep the first part of it and delete the part that you read. I thought that we- The opposite.
We should keep the first part. The 3000K is- Yeah, because we- Okay ... once it's inside the building, the zoning code can't regulate the color temperature and all that. So yeah, we want it to be 3000K.
We want it to be dimmable. Right. I thought the applicant was saying that they don't want to have some legal obligation to adjust the lighting if it's... Okay. No, we're good with that part. It was the complaint section because- That's- ...
the way you read it was- Well, the way I read it is that you would have to address any reasonable public complaints. And I thought that was the part that you guys said. Yeah, that was the part that- Yeah, that's what I thought, too.
Okay. Or should we amend the motion to strike that and...? Yeah, I would make that amendment, and I also, when you're listing off the exemptions- Please add ... I think... Hmm? Please add. Well, you mentioned just the ground level lighting.
I think we should just exempt all exterior building lighting, and that goes back as part of the landscaping package that we're going to review. Is that- I'll accept ... okay with- And I thought we were also exempting from approval the memory walk.
The memory walk is not- Doesn't exist ... a thing. But the site plan- It does exist ... you omitted page seven. You included page eight- It's not ... blah, blah, blah, but page seven, which is where it identifies the tree and furniture zone, the vehicular drive aisle, and pedestrian promenade.
Okay, we'll add- Seven, eight. All right, so I'm going to accept a friendly amendment to also exclude page seven. I'm going to amend the summary about lighting revised to say we'll strike the phrase that says, "The owner will address any reasonable public complaints about brightness or glare from exterior lights or non-vehicular lights visible from the garage by either dimming the lamp, repairing the lamp's fixtures, and/or modifying the screening at wall openings." And then add, "To prevent bright light and glare emanating from the garage openings, lamping for the garage lights immediately inside any opening will be dimmable, have a color temperature not exceeding 3000K, and have a color rendering index not less than 80, preferably not less than 90." Yeah.
And that we would also like to include all exterior building lighting in the site plan. Yes. And the reason I'm saying that, just in case there's any lighting that happens on your rooftop terraces or things like that.
Just- Mm-hmm ... I'm sure it will be gray, but just want to see it. Well, sorry. Forgive me, I'm confused. The lighting's not shown. The only lighting that's shown is on page 12. And we're excluding that.
I guess that's fair. I guess- We're already excluding page 12. Right. And we're wanting to see the exterior lighting of the project. You will. Yes. Right. Okay, but I just didn't want to say we're excluding other lighting.
Fair. Because it's not- I know- ... yeah. Yeah, I know it's not in there. Got you. But we want to see. Got you. Got you. Got you. Any other amendments? All right, there's motions- Have we adequately exempted the plaza in the front?
Hmm. And the hardscape? I mean, if that's part of the site plan, that's- I mean, if the answer's yes, then I'm fine. I just want to make sure. I mean, I think so, if we've excluded the site plan. I mean, but the front includes a lot of hardscape, not just the plant.
Yeah, so- Yeah. I mean, our- Yeah ... it says plant palette. It's just based on what this says. Okay. So, we're using all the right... So, when we say site plan in the minutes, make sure we're clear we're not talking about the- Yeah.
... required site plan, but the- Well- ... the landscaping and hardscaping plan ... not all parts of the site plan. Okay. Right. Yes. Yes. And there, I want to just, again, before you vote, just be clear on clarification on something so that everybody understands.
Archaeological investigation phase one relatively simple. If human remains are found on the site, by state law, you have to stop. That's it. That's not- We don't even have to go down that road ... we don't even have to say that.
Or we would hope they would. We don't need to discuss this. If a phase one is completed, and we accept it into the record, we do not have an archeology ordinance in town, so we can't-- we can encourage it, and wish for it, and hope for it.
But, if while they're doing excavation and- They're- They don't have to stop ... they're beholding state law- Yeah. Right. Regarding archeology. We're just requiring a- There you go ... phase one. Just so we're clear, yeah.
Yep. All right. Call a vote? Yeah. I think my second still stands. Yes. Did you think we captured the motion as well as possible? I'll bet Patrick has. I will get to relive this again. Yeah. I would say yeah.
Okay. You're clear. In the recording, I heard- Yes ... the pieces fit together. Okay. Mr. Schwartz? Yes. Mr. Bailey? Yes. Mr. Burle? Aye. Ms. Lewis? Aye. Mr. Timmerman? Yes. Ms. Tavenny? Yes. Ms. Rosenthal?
Yes. Ms. Trumpeter? Yes. And I vote yes. All right. Thank you, guys. Final thought on this- Nope ... just, again, to inform- Nope. Everybody passed it. Nope. No more thoughts. No-- Yes. No thoughts. Lots more thoughts.
No thoughts. I'm sorry, Ms. Neill. Yes. So the applicant can appeal any of the conditions of this approval. Sure. They have 10 business days following this action to make an appeal. So yes, an applicant can appeal- An approval.
That's right ... the conditions- Conditions of approval ... of approval. And additionally, if the adjacent property owners feel aggrieved by this, they can also appeal that to council. That process requires an application be submitted, a statement.
If someone is planning it, then please talk to me because it's not just saying, "I want to appeal this process or this project." There is a fee involved, and there's a formal application involved. So I just wanted to make sure we're on the record with that.
Within 10 days. Yeah. It's good. You can just announce that. Within 10 days. Yes. 10 business days. Business days. Yeah. Thank you. Sure. All right. Mr. Chair, I would respectfully suggest that we not discuss the BAR bylaws this evening, seeing as the time is 9:30.
Could we possibly defer that to our July meeting when I understand the agenda may be light? We may not have anything, so- We might not have anything. The town- What others feel-- Do folks want to dig into the bylaws or not this evening?
Not for me. No. All right. Then maybe we'll just ask for homework and ask everybody to- Yeah ... look over them on their- Yep ... own time between now and the July date, and email in any thoughts and comments to Kate and the group.
I've already thrown in my two cents on the pre-application conference, if anybody had a chance to read it yet. Yeah. Wait, we have to discuss our barbecue. That's right. And I was going to suggest, Mr.
Chair, we could meet... I believe in the deliberative process that if nine people plus staff get together and we talk about the bylaws, we all get, instead of everybody sending in separate emails, in that environment, you hear other people's comments.
You come to a consensus. You are better in that deliberative process than you are just us shooting our opinions or ideas to staff and then having them cull it. And I would also suggest if we did want to do the barbecue, we could meet 5:00 or 5:30 here or whatever, 4:30 or whatever, and meet.
And it'll be an official meeting, and then we adjourn, and we give the location of our adjournment. And the meeting actually continues to wherever we go, and that's how you handle it under state law. Okay.
Yeah. So we would have to disclose the address of wherever we're going, so any member of the public could come and eat barbecue with us. I don't know if that's what we want. It's not what you want because you want to take all day off and cook.
No, you all have-- You have historically had a, the city has provided an annual dinner, and that's not been a public meeting. So I think to separate the business out- I think your point's taken of having a discussion about the bylaws, and I was-- Sorry, didn't mean to indicate that we would supplant a discussion about them with our comments or our emails.
I think it was more just making sure we do our homework and read through the suggested- It helps to- ... edits and maybe at least send in questions or like, "Hey, could you clarify this?" Sure. And then that way, when we do get back together, it's a more robust conversation.
Okay. Thank you. Yeah. What Kate and I would like- Sorry. Misunderstood ... to do is not finalize them, but have where you all are heading, at least a good understanding of that, so then we can have a conversation with legal.
And then when we sit down, we're looking at something that we've gotten feedback on internally. And so- Potentially votable? Yeah. So I agree with both of you. But we were under advisement to take everything to legal first, and we kind of had to push back and say, "Well, I want to make sure we've captured" The idea.
That's right. Because if legal says, "Yeah, it's all good," and then we have further changes- Right ... that's wasted in their time. Right. So, I would say if we've got a lot going on, I don't know if we have a July meeting or not, but- I think we should hold that date for our barbecue- Okay.
And then, yeah ... and then do the bylaws in August. I think you're fine. And then- Unless something comes up for us to meet. Yeah. Is that a good timeline? But still respond to me if you got a thought or a question.
And the last piece of this, and I discussed this with the city attorney, discussed it with Missy, my boss, and the recommendation was to try to keep this skeletal and a framework. Don't box ourselves in with a lot of words and rely on Robert's Rules for procedural things so that we can reference those.
And I think that's where that idea, as you were saying, sort of separating out, take the agenda and chunk it out. Here's where the public comment comes in, but we're having a pre-app discussion. That's a different thing.
So keep it simple. Can I have a final thought? Yeah, because you're organizing it. So in, like, three hours marks the two-year anniversary for me working with you all. Yay. So very happy- Thank you ...
and privileged to be here- Thank you, Kate, for everything you've done for us ... and kudos to Jeff for taking me on. She came with a good recommendation from a guy with a great Southern accent- ... who said, "I'm not sure what name she's going by right now." And I was like, "Ah." Well, in the South, we take our husbands' names, so here's- There you go.
Thank you, Kate. Yes. Yeah. Who has the code sheet? I think I do. Right there. What was the whole thing? I drew on one of them. Or no, I actually took some notes. I wonder where it went. Oh, is it in there, on the other side?
You are. No. It's signed off. That's yours. Where did that go? Oh, I passed it along. Oh. It had the trees and the- The cherry. Oh, yeah. Cherry mic. What? Do I hear a motion to adjourn? So moved. All in favor?